Need Engine-transmission mating tricks

[98sub2500leg]

Having problems mating these two. Can't seem to get the correct angle. Have the two lower studs inserted into the transmission holes. Also have the 2 upper bolts threaded into the engine. Problem is there is an offset angle between the two. The tranny is angled up, the engine has to be raised high enough to clear the lower mount studs onto the crossmember and can't seem to get the right angle between the two to mate properly. Seems like a no brainer.

[davebugs]

Auto or stick?

 

Tranny supported well and raised a bit?

 

Dogbone disconnected? They wil lcome out with it in place but I've never been able to get an engine back in with it in place.

 

Don't forget as you add weight to the car (from the engine) the angle changes slightly. May or may not be in your favor.

[lostinthe202]

also remember that the splines on the trans shaft may not be lined up with the clutch disc. A socket on the crank pulley bolt up front can help facilitate a meeting. Hopefully you checked for free movement of the clutch disc on the trans shaft as well as a light greasing of said shaft?

 

As for the alignment, sounds like you have the engine on a hoist and are trying to fit the two back together. Pull the mounts off of the engine, then you'll have an easier time getting the two together as you won't be fighting both the angle and the mount stud locations. Once you have them together and the mating bolts tight, jack the assembly back up a few inches and slip the the engine mounts back in and bolt everything up.

 

Patience is your friend.

 

EDIT - this is assuming a manual trans, I don't know squat about an auto

[98sub2500leg]

Auto or stick?

 

Tranny supported well and raised a bit?

 

Dogbone disconnected? They wil lcome out with it in place but I've never been able to get an engine back in with it in place.

 

Don't forget as you add weight to the car (from the engine) the angle changes slightly. May or may not be in your favor.

 

 

Sorry, manual trans. Can you re-elaborate on the dogbone, this must be the hangup. Thanks.

[98sub2500leg]

also remember that the splines on the trans shaft may not be lined up with the clutch disc. A socket on the crank pulley bolt up front can help facilitate a meeting. Hopefully you checked for free movement of the clutch disc on the trans shaft as well as a light greasing of said shaft?

 

As for the alignment, sounds like you have the engine on a hoist and are trying to fit the two back together. Pull the mounts off of the engine, then you'll have an easier time getting the two together as you won't be fighting both the angle and the mount stud locations. Once you have them together and the mating bolts tight, jack the assembly back up a few inches and slip the the engine mounts back in and bolt everything up.

 

Patience is your friend.

 

EDIT - this is assuming a manual trans, I don't know squat about an auto

 

Yes, to the clutch engagement & test rotation of the crank first. I actually have the two partially mated and the shaft is engaged. I am doing this solo and have been at it for several hours (patience is running thin). Although, I have stepped back and analyzed it. The mounts do seem to be the main culprit. If I raise the engine just high enough to clear the studs relative to the mounts, the engine angle is too high.

I also do have the bottom supported, there is no combination of angles between the two I have not tried yet. Those mounts have to come off.

 

 

This was also a bear to get out at the beginning. Worse going back.

[davebugs]

A few notes.

 

I've never had to remove the engine mounts - never even crossed my mind. Brings up thoghts of attaching the ATF lines to the Left head on some years automatics - not pleaseant when you install an engine and forget them.

 

The dogbone is the thing that looks like a dogbone (go figure) that attaches right at the top front of the tranny bellhousing and it's lets say 6 inches long and attaches towards the firewall under the ignitor. 14mm bolt and nut. Unbolt it closest where the engine and tranny meet. No need to remove it. Just watch that you still don't jamb against it when raising the tranny.

 

It's sounding like your tranny isn't lifting high enough. This dogbone could be stopping it. The other proposed option actually allows you to lower the angle of the engine rather than raise the tranny.

 

Sometimes you have to "disconnect" and start over. Sucks but it happens.

[lostinthe202]

I recently did my first Subaru clutch and I chose to remove the engine also. It seemed to come apart OK, but I had the same reassembly issue that you're having: When the engine is high enough to clear the mount studs, its no longer at the same angle as the the trans shaft. After several attempts I removed the engine mounts and it slid together the first try.

 

Of note: I did not jack the trans at all because, the way I had the engine hanging from the hoist, it looked like jacking the trans was going to point it the wrong way.

 

Since Dave has done more several more Subaru clutches then years I've been alive, my guess is that when I hoisted the engine, I didn't have it at a complementary angle. So that combined with not having lifted the trans at all led to the situation that I (and now you) was in.

 

That being said, the desired end result is the same, make the projected angle of the crank the same as the trans shaft however you need to do it.... right?

[ron917]

If you had the engine mounts off, make sure you put them back on the right way. I know for a fact you can put them on the engine backwards, and the studs won't line up with the crossmember slots when you lower the engine.

 

My biggest suggestion: get a helper who can watch and guide the engine as you try to swing the swing into place. My son helped me get the rebuilt engine into my '99 Outback (it's his car now). I couldn't have done it without his help. Once I got him involved, the engine and trans (auto) mated up in one shot.

 

I also used a load balancer that allowed me to adjust the angle of the engine. That helped a lot. You might already have one, but didn't mention it, so I don't know.

[98sub2500leg]

Finally got them mated & bolted. I re-analyzed. The upper sections were mated too closer than the bottom. The bottom studs were in about 3/4 of the way, but angled. I jacked up the tranny 1/2 way back to lower the front of it a bit, then raised the engine to clear the studs to the mounts. I then backed the top bolts out and pushed from the front of the engine with forward thrust (by hand). It slipped right into place evenly this time.

 

Problem now is that with it all bolted together the engine mount studs don't want to seat onto the cross member, not sure why. They are off approx by about 3/8"-1/2" too far forward of the cross member. Anyone seen this before?

Any ideas?

[davebugs]

Push harder.

 

While you were seperating the two, or having difficulty getting it re-installed you pulled EVERYTHING forward a bit. You need to jamb it back. Best done while tranny is supported and engine is supported.

Edited June 12, 2009 by davebugs
typing abilities

[98sub2500leg]

A few notes.

 

I've never had to remove the engine mounts - never even crossed my mind. Brings up thoghts of attaching the ATF lines to the Left head on some years automatics - not pleaseant when you install an engine and forget them.

 

The dogbone is the thing that looks like a dogbone (go figure) that attaches right at the top front of the tranny bellhousing and it's lets say 6 inches long and attaches towards the firewall under the ignitor. 14mm bolt and nut. Unbolt it closest where the engine and tranny meet. No need to remove it. Just watch that you still don't jamb against it when raising the tranny.

 

It's sounding like your tranny isn't lifting high enough. This dogbone could be stopping it. The other proposed option actually allows you to lower the angle of the engine rather than raise the tranny.

 

Sometimes you have to "disconnect" and start over. Sucks but it happens.

 

Oh ok, I was sitting here trying to imagine what the part is, then "ding", they refer to that as the pivot pin in the manuals. Yes, I did reattach it and the bolt was loose removing it may be the ticket though. I will let you know. Thanks.

[98sub2500leg]

If you had the engine mounts off, make sure you put them back on the right way. I know for a fact you can put them on the engine backwards, and the studs won't line up with the crossmember slots when you lower the engine.

 

My biggest suggestion: get a helper who can watch and guide the engine as you try to swing the swing into place. My son helped me get the rebuilt engine into my '99 Outback (it's his car now). I couldn't have done it without his help. Once I got him involved, the engine and trans (auto) mated up in one shot.

 

I also used a load balancer that allowed me to adjust the angle of the engine. That helped a lot. You might already have one, but didn't mention it, so I don't know.

 

Not sure if you read the update, I did finally get them mated and bolted together. Had to lift up under the mid section of the tranny, then working carefully to match the mating angles of the two sides. Then pushed forward.

I went back and examined the mounts to see if they could be removed, and I couldn't see that this was possible, have you actually achieved this before?

I can get to the 2 mount bracket mounting bolts on the engine to remove them, but once the mount is removed and reinstalled onto the crossmemeber and the engine is lowered on the mount, there just doesn't seem to be enough clearance at all to re-bolt the two bracket bolts to the engine. If you have done this let me know the trick, although this is the reason for the extended stud design.

 

Yes, getting as helper would greatly help. Doing it solo isn't a cakewalk. My hoist is a 40HP Kubota tractor/loader with forks. I suspended the chain to the fork, and used nylon safety straps as a backup and fine positioning. I should have used two forks though to spread out the load better. It has

very fine control, but the problem is working solo moving the fork a hair, getting out & a lot of moving around. You definitely get your exercise.

[davebugs]

I believe Skip has used the Kubota method. I know he used the Kubota to pull the pump in his water well last summer.

 

Skip has a sweet setup that I have aquired the parts for but haven't done yet.

 

He mounted an ATV winch to his cherry picker. Allows power in and out with like a 20' remote. Since I'm usually doing this myself this idea is genious!

 

I picked up a cheap (50 bucks) Harbor Freight winch but haven't gotten it mounted yet.

 

Glad you got it all back in.

 

When the whole drive line gets pulled forward like that there really isn't a good pry point. But just getting some leverage for your body and pushing hard does it.

[ron917]

I went back and examined the mounts to see if they could be removed, and I couldn't see that this was possible, have you actually achieved this before?

I can get to the 2 mount bracket mounting bolts on the engine to remove them, but once the mount is removed and reinstalled onto the crossmemeber and the engine is lowered on the mount, there just doesn't seem to be enough clearance at all to re-bolt the two bracket bolts to the engine. If you have done this let me know the trick, although this is the reason for the extended stud design.

 

 

No, you're right, you can't get to the mount bracket bolts on the engine without lifting it a bit.

 

In my case, I bolted one of the mounts on to the engine backwards when I swapped them on to the rebuilt engine. I didn't notice until I tried to lower the engine/trans combo after mating them. I had to raise the engine a few inches to unbolt and install the mount correctly. After that, the mounts studs dropped into the crossmeber slots with just a little bit of wiggling.

 

If you didnt' remove the mounts from the engine, you won't have the problem that I had.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room in the rear tranny mount. Like davebugs said, you probably have it shifted and need to shove it all back in place.

 

I removed the pitching stopper rod (a.k.a. dogbone) before pulling the engine and left the tranny supported by a jack. That's what the FSM said to do, but I doubt it would make a difference. As long as it's out of the way now when you're trying to shift everything around.

[98sub2500leg]

I believe Skip has used the Kubota method. I know he used the Kubota to pull the pump in his water well last summer.

 

Skip has a sweet setup that I have aquired the parts for but haven't done yet.

 

He mounted an ATV winch to his cherry picker. Allows power in and out with like a 20' remote. Since I'm usually doing this myself this idea is genious!

 

I picked up a cheap (50 bucks) Harbor Freight winch but haven't gotten it mounted yet.

 

Glad you got it all back in.

 

When the whole drive line gets pulled forward like that there really isn't a good pry point. But just getting some leverage for your body and pushing hard does it.

 

Yeah, I have one of those winches, but haven't used it yet.

I dis finally get them mated together which is great, but the mounting studs on the engine mounts are not lining up with the holes on the crossmember. They are still about 1/4-3/8" offset from each other (both studs are too far forward relative to the crossmember holes). Jacking the crossmember up or down doesn't seem to affect it. Not sure how to combat this problem. everything is in a fixed position (from forward to back ). Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 12, 2009 by 98sub2500leg

[davebugs]

I told you in general.

 

Have the Kubota support the engine, a jack support the tranny.

 

Get under there and PUSH on the oil pan from the front.

 

I never could find a good spot to use a pry bar.

 

You wanna take all the weight that you can off all the mounts to make it easier to move the whole assy back.

 

Appropriate grunting and swearing seems to help.

[98sub2500leg]

Push harder.

 

While you were seperating the two, or having difficulty getting it re-installed you pulled EVERYTHING forward a bit. You need to jamb it back. Best done while tranny is supported and engine is supported.

 

Ok, I'm back on it, much thanks for the reply. I will keep you posted, heck if all goes well should be running soon.

[98sub2500leg]

Finally got it, man what a pain. Never had one that bad. I made the mistake of installing the pitching stopper(dogbone) bolt. Once this was free, the engine/trans shifted too far back this time. I jacked the tranny a bit, and moved the tractor backward pulling the engine towards the front of the car slowly(a hair at a time), inspected, wasn't enough, then kept re-trying & inspecting mounting stud position. Finally lowered it and the studs seated into the holes. A sight for sore eyes.:headbang::banana:

 

Thanks to all who replied. Dave, let me know when your ever in Seattle I owe ya a lunch.

[davebugs]

Thankfully I don't travel like I used to. I didn't have any time to play with cars, go to my place in the mountains, etc. The money was good though. Now I've been doing the "quality of life" thing for about 5 years.

 

Been to Seattle. For a week vacation. I used to have enough free airline tickets and hotel stays that I'd give her choice of where to vacation. One year she picked going to Seattle with her sister and her husband. Only time we ever vacationed with others.

 

You folks are WAY left of me.

 

 

 

Did the culture things. I talked the others (another couple and ourselves) into the "Ride the Ducks" tour. It was the most fun we had!

 

The VW sculpture under the bridge was another high point.

 

Thanks for the offer. Glad you got it done.

 

Don't forget to add MMO when filling the crankcase. It still won't quiet down until after it's driven 10-20 miles.

 

And especially if it was a 2.5 follow the burping procedures here.

[98sub2500leg]

Well, the offer is still good. Just wrapping it up, filled the top radiator hose with coolant, need to fill rad, then burp then crankcase oil. I am hearing conflicting things about oil and I know there are many opinions and it is mainly personal.

First, what is MMO?

I bought Valveoline synthetic 5w30. I thought the dealer said for the first run do not use synthetic, although guys at the parts store said most new cars now come with synthetic.

[OB99W]

[...]First, what is MMO? [...]

MMO = Marvel Mystery Oil

Note that I'm defining it, not endorsing it.

[Olnick]

MMO is "Marvel Mystery Oil." Generally it acts as a cleaner/solvent, can be especially helpful in small oil passages. I know it stopped a valve tick in my sons '92 Legacy recently.

 

But you don't want to use it in your oil constantly--maybe run it with some cheaper oil for a day or two to flush the system, then drain and fill with your good stuff. Hopefully davebugs and others will chime in with their thoughts.

 

Personally I'd see no problem going with synthetic after that.

 

Good luck. Can't wait to hear a good report when you fire her up!

[98sub2500leg]

Thanks, never heard of it. Since I have so much in parts I will wait at least until tomorrow for any additional post replies. I did remove all the oil from the system, removed the heads, pan, oil pump. Had the heads cleaned by the machine shop. Cleaned as many areas as I had access to. Scrubbed the carbon from piston heads, ect.. The main block was all well within specs so left it alone, but cleaned as well as I could.

[davebugs]

I've learned that the MMO really works on Suby's.

 

I try and put a 100-500 miles on the car and change the oil and filter.

 

MMO thins out the oil and makes it smell good (no kidding). I use 4 qts of 5w30 and 1 qt of MMO (A little less on 2.2's of the 5w30).

 

I don't believe in synthetics for engines such as this. Diesels and turbo's yes. Same thing a lot of times with oil analysis. Costs the same as changing the oil, I jsut change the oil.

 

I've seen cases where perhaps the old "break in" oil wasnt' needed but synthetics have caused issues with freshly rebuilt enignes. That have been bored oversized, new rings, etc.

 

These Suby's seem to go 250-300k with normal maintenance and fluids.

 

I still do every 3k.

 

Gotta run.

[sentimentalcase]

My throw out bearing shredded couple days ago. Had a lot of trouble separating the engine and trans. Working on my back with a floor jack didn’t make it easier.  So I took some pb blaster and soaked the dowels. After a bit I took a small 4lb sledge and “gently” tapped on the side of the trans and engine where the dowel was. Holy cow it was like Moses parting the Red Sea. Just barely though. I was able to tap a 5&1 tool. Yes a scraper in between and it got the gap wide enough that I could use a flathead and then my pry bars. Winner winner chicken dinner!   Reassembly. Was just as tough. I was able to use several jacks. One on each end of the trans cause I don’t have a trans jack. But will soon. And using a pry bar I was able to get the trans close enough to get a couple bolts at least started on one side. The studs hadn’t came through yet. So I adjusted my jacks to match the angle and loosened the bolts up all the way took my pry bar and found a solid spot on the engine close to the ac comp and rocked the motor back and forth a “wee bit” and pop it slid right over my studs and it was game over. I win.  This job was a true challenge of my skills and I really really don’t wanna do it again anytime soon 😂. But hope my struggles and solutions help someone else. Oh I have a 2014 Impreza 2.0i base manual cause why not and manuals are better than autos.