Niku-Sama Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 ok so i thought i would get to the bottom of this temp only gets to 1/4 the way up the guage thing. this morning i got up, popped the thermostat out, 195 stamped on the bottom, coolants clean no corrosion arround it, bita black goo on it from the thermostat gasket but all arround good shape, thought it was odd that a 195F thermostat is making the car run cold, its not that cool of a thermostat. tossed it in a pot of water, boiled it, arround 200F it opens up no probs. toss it back in the car, run it to make sure it just wasnt stuck open and snapped shut when i drove and same result. go to junk yard, pull a few thermostats and see what head gasket blown cars are using and they are all 180F thermostats, grab a few sending units for the temp guage, swap with the one on the car.....same thing. the sending unit for the guage is the brass screw in unit with the one spade connector right? so i am stumped, are these single row radiators really efficient when they are acually clean and flowing well? i imagine it has a bunch of smaller diameter tubes running in it to increase cooling efficency while keeping down on space and cost, have seen it before and since these were mroe of an economy car i doubt many people keept the cooling system in check and probally clogged alot of areas of the rad. or is it possible the funky loyale i have has a different radiator from normal too, so far this has been the most un ordinary loyale i have seen, awd turbo 4eat, wouldnt supprised me if it had some sort of different rad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opus Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I would lean towards bad gauge. Can you get hold of an infrared thermometer, you know, point and shoot ones. That will tell you what the real temps are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Depends on which model you have. 1/4 way up sounds about right for a Loyale. I get concerned when my NA SPFI Loyale starts to hit 1/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihscout54 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Is this a recent change? Or has it always read in the "1/4" range? As long as it isnt fluctuating alot, and your heat feels nice and toasty, I wouldnt worry about it. But as noted above the only real way to know is with a laser thermo. head gasket blown cars are using and they are all 180F thermostats Sorry off topic, but this must be because all the uneducated owners go this route when they start having over heating issues. When I did my spfi swap, Autozone's computer said that 180 was the O.E. spec temp, so thats what I used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 i've only had it a few weeks and its been like this the whole time. its a turbo loyale, i dont think the guage goes bad like this, i know sending units can so thats why i tried a few. the heat works, it could be warmer, and the electric fan has never kicked on. the electric fan does work, i jumped it and it kicked on, it also has a new switch in the rad for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Just go buy a new thermostat. replace the radiator cap and make sure the cooling fans arent on all the time. Check your ignition timing and the EGR valve operation, otherwise it is what it is. If you want you can buy a cheap gauge and wire it in just to test the cooling system. You can also stick a meat thermometer in the rad filler neck and wait for the thermostat to open up and read the temp. Check your altenator output too. If it is putting out too much voltage it can make the gauge read off. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman18 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 1/4 up the gauge sounds perfect for me. Every Loyale I've had runs at 1/4. That's why I recently was worried about my car getting warmer than that. But I'd say you are right where you need to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Just go buy a new thermostat. replace the radiator cap and make sure the cooling fans arent on all the time. Check your ignition timing and the EGR valve operation, otherwise it is what it is. If you want you can buy a cheap gauge and wire it in just to test the cooling system. You can also stick a meat thermometer in the rad filler neck and wait for the thermostat to open up and read the temp. Check your altenator output too. If it is putting out too much voltage it can make the gauge read off. nipper dont be tellin me about the guage, i'm not the one that thinks its bad some one else does. 1/4 up the gauge sounds perfect for me. Every Loyale I've had runs at 1/4. That's why I recently was worried about my car getting warmer than that. But I'd say you are right where you need to be eh i just dont think its going to come up at all when its cold out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 You should be happy its running cold. Its a EA82T, anything warmer and I would start worrying. If it aint broke, dont fix it And if the heater blows hot air, you dont have nothing to worry about in Winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 meh alright, i guess its a good coushon for when the a/c condenser starts letting off heat when i get it fixed. these rads must cool really really well when they arent clogged then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 It could be a 2 row, or just a newer one. Normally the old ones dont cool worth a darn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Problems with your methodology: 1. You haven't taken temp readings with a known accurate shop gauge to verify anything. 2. You haven't verified the exact opening temperature of your thermostat. Boiling water will test if it actually does open, but you still don't know the upper and lower bounds of when it begins to open and is fully opened. 3. You haven't verified the resistance vs. temperature of the coolant temp sensors you tried, nor have you checked that the gauge reads accurately when given a known resistance value in place of the sensor. If you did each of these tests you would then have the knowledge to take appropriate corrective action if any is neccesary. Till then you are just spinning you wheels. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 yea ok so saying boiling the water and "the thermostat opens arround 200F" you think i am eye balling that? oh you know theres bubbles in it, should be about 200F..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Heating it in glycol mix would be prefereable - it boil's higher than plain water and you can use a thermometer. Thermostat's don't snap open - they open over a temperature range. And you haven't done a detailed test to confirm the range - from when it first begins to open to when it's fully open. It may be partially openeing too soon. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4_Welder Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Sorry off topic, but this must be because all the uneducated owners go this route when they start having over heating issues. When I did my spfi swap, Autozone's computer said that 180 was the O.E. spec temp, so thats what I used. Huh? Uneducated owner use the one recommended by AZ that you used? A t-stat generally opens when it is supposed to, or fails completely. I have never had one that opened at an off temperature. And 1/4 way up is dead on for an EA82T. Mine runs there too, that is (verified with non-contact pyrometer) 195-200º. IMO, they calibrated the gauge to sit there so fewer people would freak out over a higher temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 okie dokie... i checked the level today and it was a little bit low, it sucked the overflow dry and was sitting low in the neck, not dangerously but it probally just sucked the coolant that was lost when i pulled the thermostat and coolant temp sensor speaking of sensors, where the sensor that adjusts the fuel mixtures depending on the temp of the car? i wanna test it but i cant find the thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 And 1/4 way up is dead on for an EA82T. Mine runs there too, that is (verified with non-contact pyrometer) 195-200º. IMO, they calibrated the gauge to sit there so fewer people would freak out over a higher temp. A properly calibrated gauge should sit dead center at operating temp. You can change the calibration via a screw inside the gauge. I have seen and owned more than one that were off by a good amount. NEVER trust the stock gauge to be correct after 20+ years - that's just plain silly when you consider the risks involved and the ease with which it can be verified. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 i've owned some pretty old cars, and infact this is the newest car i have owned. but i have never ever seen a guage lose its accuracy due to time. i have had the sending units go bad over time because of the fact that thermosistors become more resistant over time. i pulled sending units from different cars of various years and milages and they all read approximatly the same between them all so they musta used a higher quality thermosistor in these. it kinda explains why people freak here when it gets into the red, aparently red on these cars would be the temprature of the surface of the freakin sun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have stated this before..and I will again.. you want to know exactly what temp your car is running at all times?? there is a cheap $15 trick that is extremely accurate. I have been using it on my coupe while the digi was bad ..and the new digi is out... Its nothing more then a digital over thermomete..a small digital box ..with a wire and a probe. just shove the probe under the foam insulation for the heater core lines under the dash. Or you can just use it for a tester elsewhere under the hood. There is a group of us using these for a number of different cars. I know exactly what my coolant temp is at all times. You can even set an alarm if it starts getting to warm. I never trust stock gauges.. I have had them lie to me before. And BTW.. my 92 Loyale N/A used to run barely off the C on the stock gauge..even in 100 degree summer days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 i've owned some pretty old cars, and infact this is the newest car i have owned. but i have never ever seen a guage lose its accuracy due to time. i have had the sending units go bad over time because of the fact that thermosistors become more resistant over time. I'll wager I've owned more old cars, and definitely owned more old Subaru's specifically. My '83 hatch that I drive daily right now has an extremely miscalibrated oil pressure gauge and a somewhat miscalibrated voltage gauge. Both read low. My Brat has a temp gauge that reads high. I've seen sending units go bad as well, but the inexpensive gauges in these cars are prone to changes in their calibration over time - it's just a fact. I work on industrial machinery every day and I probably replace more bad gauges than any other single common part - across all brands and models. They are cheap, throw away items. i pulled sending units from different cars of various years and milages and they all read approximatly the same between them all so they musta used a higher quality thermosistor in these. Not really. It's just a plain encapsulated thermistor. Very cheap and prone to breakdown of the semiconductor over time. If Subaru were really on the ball they would have allowed the ECU to be re-calibrated as the thermistor ages and it's resistance changes. I've seen plenty of them fail. Often times the ones you find in used cars have already been replaced a time or two. it kinda explains why people freak here when it gets into the red, aparently red on these cars would be the temprature of the surface of the freakin sun Perhaps - you won't know unless you actually test the operating temp now will you? My Brat's gauge reads high - but I checked it with a temp gun and with the thermocouple for my DMM - both indicate it is well withing normal operating range and the fan cycles normally with a brand new switch. The Brat cycles the fan on just as the needle reaches the bottom of the red. The needle then drops about 1/8" at the tip and the fan cuts off. I know the fan comes on at 210 and goes off at 195. That is perfectly normal for a vehicle with a stock 190 thermostat. But I KNOW - because I did the tests. You won't know till you do the proper tests to determine the actual conditions. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 wow ok some dude my general age talking down to me like some old overzealous cock. i'll trust the guage, the resistance off the sending unit is within spec at temp, thermostat opens at temp listed. the fan doesent kick on but from what i am seeing it doesent really need to the coolant is back down to arround 140 before it heads back in. no cold spots in the radiator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) You're welcome. Seriously though - I'm done helping you. You don't listen. Age has nothing to do with this - it's experience and knowledge. If you don't want to listen then why come here? Go ahead and do as you like. Probably should take a look at your attitude - might be why you are unemployed and driving a sub-$500 beater at *approximately* my age You need to learn some attention to detail. You're punctuation and grammer are ugly and disorganized - I get the same feeling about your automotive skills. GD Edited June 18, 2009 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) what ever, you've said that before yet we have this now. eaither way mabe you should treat people with more respect, who cares if you dont know them or if they are new, you dont know them and you need to give them the benifit of a doubt. and also you dont need to write a friggin book every post when a smaller, shorter post is just as helpful or more often that i have seen is more helpful. then again this is the guy who wanted me to tear the whole engine down before trying the cheap and a whole lot easier seals for the tick of death. sure the TOD may come back later on down the road when things wear out but by then i'll either have another engine lined up or i'll be able to afford something else. edit: i forgot to add, the sb $500 beater. well no ************ sherlock, i did only pay $300 for it. thats exactly what it is but it doesent mean it cant run well. i dont think thats something you understand, $300 car, not gonna put a whole lot of money into it unless i find its going to be worth it, do some things here and there that are cheap, thats pretty much it. yea i have talked about the whole EJ thing but trust me, what ever donor car and or engine isnt going to be near the cost of this car, and it'll be purely for fun. acually considering the ammount i have put into the car its total cost is about $366 its exactly that, a cheap car, its cheap to insure even but like i said before just because its a cheap beater doesent mean it cant run well. Edited June 18, 2009 by Niku-Sama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 eaither way mabe you should treat people with more respect, who cares if you dont know them or if they are new, you dont know them and you need to give them the benifit of a doubt. I don't *need* to do anything. Respect is earned and I treat the majority of questions with the respect or lack thereof that they deserve. Ask a stupid question or walk a stupid path and I'll happily tell you about it. Simple fact is I help a lot of people around here solve difficult problems. Those that are willing to listen. and also you dont need to write a friggin book every post when a smaller, shorter post is just as helpful or more often that i have seen is more helpful. I write what I need to in order to clearly get my point across. If that means I give headaches to those with 5th grade reading skills then so be it. I type fast and I read fast. Deal with it. then again this is the guy who wanted me to tear the whole engine down before trying the cheap and a whole lot easier seals for the tick of death. That is quite the embellishment. I sugested that you remove the cam towers and inspect the cam-tower o-rings and the lifters. It's not difficult being you already had the timing belts off. It's well worth the $4 for the o-rings from the dealer and the extra couple hours it takes. And it's not even close to "tearing the whole engine down"..... I know cause I've done that too. sure the TOD may come back later on down the road when things wear out but by then i'll either have another engine lined up or i'll be able to afford something else. There is no excuse for shoddy work. Do it right or do it again. its exactly that, a cheap car, its cheap to insure even but like i said before just because its a cheap beater doesent mean it cant run well. Unfortunately the part that I have put in bold letters simply isn't true of the EA82T. Empirical evidence shows that they are not cheap to maintain if you want daily-driver reliability from them. Ergo - they can't both be a "cheap" beater and "run well".... not for long anyway. The "cheap" part will bite you - I and many others here can attest to that with virtual certainty. /BOOK GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 This message is hidden because GeneralDisorder is on your ignore list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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