BluetoE Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Hi all, I have a 98 OBW with 191k miles on it and last week, while driving at 70 mph on the interstate, the timing belt either broke or one of the tensioner pulleys gave out. The belt was replaced at 135k, so it should have been ok still, but the tensioner pulleys were not replaced when they did the belt. The engine was hemorrhaging oil after I pulled over, so I expect the worst. Assuming the motor is past the point of repair, I am here asking for some input. I purchased the car a year and a half ago for less than $2000, so I don't have a lot of money in it at this point. I adore my Subaru and have decided to replace the engine. I have a friend that put an EJ22 in his VW van a few years ago, so he is familiar with that engine and did all of the work himself. He has agreed to help with my project, so I am looking for input what the most cost-effective course of action would be for me at this point. The local Subaru dealership quoted me $2084 for a replacement EJ25. I have $300 worth of "Subaru Bucks"(they are like coupons that are redeemable at the dealership for parts and service. I think a credit card company issued them), so my out of pocket expense would be roughly $1700 for a "remanufactured" DOHC EJ25 from Subaru. This is option #1 and is a little more than I would like to spend at this point (We are expecting our 3rd child in late August and the A/C just went out at our house). Option #2 would be to find a used EJ22 engine that would match up. There are a couple within 100 miles of here for between $350-$1000. Do you guys recommend putting an EJ22 in a 98 OBW or am I just asking for a bunch of headaches trying to get everything to match up? Option #3 is to find a used JDM EJ25 on the internet. I have done a little searching around and these seem to be going for between $800-$1500. Can anyone recommend a good source that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to ship to the deep south? I would assume these engines would come with the original head gaskets, so I would plan on upgrading the gaskets to the newer type that are less likely to fail. I am on a limited budget, so I am looking for a "most bang for my buck" scenario. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance... PS- After the motor failed, I went back to pick up the car on the side of the road and had left the hazard lights flashing. The battery ran down. I was alone with a pickup truck and a u-haul car dolley. I couldn't turn the key, press the brake pedal, and press the button to shift into neutral. Thankfully I had my iPhone so I logged into this board and was able to do a search. I found a post explaining how to remove the shifter cover and press the button in the hole with a screwdriver. This board really saved my a**! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 If you towed it with a tow dolly you may have trashed your transmission. That's a 4WD vehicle, you can't just tow it on 4 wheels. You need to either disconnect the driveshaft or in an automatic you can place the FWD fuse in place and turn the car "on", though I normally leave it running just in case, I'm not sure how it works being on without the engine on as the rear clutch packs don't receive any fluid pressure. Anyway - the EJ22 swap is the cheapest reliable option. They are extremely easy to swap into 1998 OBW's. Search the board here for information on that, it's been discussed a zillion times. There's nothing to it, it's a plug and play swap. Zero electrical, just swap your EJ25 brackets (power steering/a/c) onto the EJ22 engine, very easy. I would avoid the JDM engines and any EJ25 unless it's had the headgaskets already replaced. Keep in mind any engine you get is going to need complete timing belt overhaul - all new pulleys and tensioner to avoid what you're going through now happening again. There's just no point in trusting countless miles and 10+ year old pulleys. If you get a 95 or 96 EJ22 they are non-interference so a broken timing belt does zero damage to your engine, that's a nice feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluetoE Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 I put the fuse in and turned the engine "on". Hopefully it didn't hurt the transmission, but I admit I don't know how the fuse works when the battery is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I put the fuse in and turned the engine "on". Hopefully it didn't hurt the transmission, but I admit I don't know how the fuse works when the battery is dead. how far and how fast did you tow?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluetoE Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 Far enough that having a tow truck pick it up would have cost me 10 times as much as a tow dolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I admit I don't know how the fuse works when the battery is dead.without power you were essentially towing it in "locked" 4WD which is the worst thing you can do. might get lucky. worst case it's fixable without dropping the trans and you can even do a free "work around" often times if you're up to installing a single wire switch. sometimes the cheapest engines can be found in buying a wrecked vehicle, keep your eyes open in any classified listings locally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluetoE Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 So did I toast the tranny? If so, replacing the engine becomes a moot point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 i thought with engine off there was no fluid pressure and so the rears would spin free from the trans. i also thought with no fluid pressure there would be no lube on the spinning components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Either way, you didn't toast it. There's really no way to tell though, but how far did you tow it and what kind of towing? It might be fine. Worst case scenario you replace the rear extension housing with a used one, which isn't hard to find or you get new clutches. Or, the cheap solution which is actually beneficial (I used to do it to mine): you can wire in a single wire switch to control the clutch packs and essentially run it FWD or locked 4WD whenever you want. I used to install that switch on my 4EAT's (i drive manuals now) because it gives you better traction in the winter - "locked 4WD". So essentially you can do a work around for free if you're up to it. It's really easy compared to an engine swap and you actually get better 4WD - it's completely locked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I'm not sure JCE. So you're saying you can tow an automatic 4WD on a dolly? To "lock" the rear transfer clutches, like when I install the switches that I do, you "cut power" to the Duty C - which locks the clutch pack. So without power it's "locked". Not sure what happens beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluetoE Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 So, should I go ahead with the engine swap as planned and worry about the "work around" once I have the new engine installed? I am leaning towards the inexpensive EJ22 unless the transmission is fried... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 you never answered - how far did you tow it? we can't really tell you anything for certain, unless i'm missing something. hate to throw away a perfectly good car though. i can tell you with 100% certainty - i would be able to keep that transmission running for a long time. it might have a switch or only be FWD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 (edited) So, should I go ahead with the engine swap as planned and worry about the "work around" once I have the new engine installed? I am leaning towards the inexpensive EJ22 unless the transmission is fried... this is just a guess but i think if you hurt the trans it was just the rear extension housing bearings. my first choice would be to buy a wreck with good eng and trans. i got a 96 lego 2.2L auto w/ 125k for 400$ plus 60$ to two it home. So you're saying you can tow an automatic 4WD on a dolly? To "lock" the rear transfer clutches, like when I install the switches that I do, you "cut power" to the Duty C - which locks the clutch pack. So without power it's "locked". Not sure what happens beyond that. no you can't tow it on a dolly with out disconnecting the drive shaft unless you are willing to damage it. the trans oil pump supplies lubrication for the bearings. when the car is off, and you jack up one rear wheel, it will spin freely. it is not hard connected to the trans gears and shafts. the whole thing is backwards and has been explained several times, but the trans pump creates fluid pressure and the duty c meters it, but no pressure equals disconnected, full pressure is locked. the duty c must bleed off pressure to reduce the 'locking'. but i get this wrong almost every time i think about it. once nipper reads this he'll roll his eyes, correct the errors and add something about a spool valve. Edited June 22, 2009 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluetoE Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 I towed it approximately 80-90 miles at 60 mph. I was using a Ford F250 Super Duty truck to pull it, so there was absolutely NO resistance and NO noticable sound coming from the car going down the road. I will plan on installing the switch to toggle the FWD/4WD if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Fortunately, you only have $2,000 in this car, which is the cost of a decent moped. With no power (dead battery), the AT multi-disc clutch would be fully ENGAGED. Without the engine running, the AT fluid pump not be running and the moving parts of the AT would be spinning DRY. Until proven otherwise, I would assume that the AT is toast. It takes very little towing abuse to total a 4EAT. That's why Subaru says tow a 4EAT car on a flat bed tow truck only. I would want to assess the condition of the AT before even thinking about replacing the engine. THere's an excellent chance that you will replace the engine only to find that the AT has to be replaced too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluetoE Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 I was about to pull the trigger on a '95 EJ22 until I read this last post... How would I go about assessing the AT? Worst case would it have only trashed the rear end or would the front tires have been engaged? There is a '93 legacy at the local Pull-A-Part. Would any of that AT match up or are the parts Outback specific? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 80-90 miles tow at 60mph would have surely killed the pump to the tranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Don't take my word for it, do a search on this website. Towing a 4EAT car by two wheels kills the AT almost instantly. If you run a 4EAT car with unmatched tires, it kills the clutch pack. Some posters are confused. I do not know how assess the AT without a running engine in the car. It's kind of a Catch-22 at this point. It would be a miracle if your AT survived a tow of that length under those conditions. In theory, you MIGHT be able to front wheel tow a 4EAT car with the FWD fuse installed and the motor running. Although I'm not volunteering my Forester to test the theory. Removing the rear drive shafts is the easiest and surest way to go with a front wheel tow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xoomer Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Not that It matters... I dolly towed a Auto xt6 250 miles with out a fuse.... got to were I was going and backed it off the dolly and am still driving it today... **BTW AIR ride still works on this one !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Nice picture of a classic car. But non-turbo XT6 models with automatic transmission were Front Wheel Drive only, so there wasn't even a place to put a FWD fuse. You can tow almost any FWD car by the front wheels all day long without a problem. The rear wheels are just along for the ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluetoE Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 Well I have decided to scrap the project. I'm not going to swap engines just to test the tranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 that's understandable, but before you give up, compare the cost of the engine trans swap, worst case, with the cost of starting over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I'd price it out too. Not normal, but I scored a good EJ transmission for $150 with only 100,000 miles on it. Still driving it today. Trans replacements are actually much less troublesome than engines. Nice picture of a classic car. But non-turbo XT6 models with automatic transmission were Front Wheel Drive only, Do huh!? The XT6 trans is exactly the same transmission - 4WD and all. The XT6 automatic is 4EAT and most of them were 4 wheel drive. They are actually nearly identical to the Legacy transmissions and are actually interchangeable with not much effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) I'd price it out too. Not normal, but I scored a good EJ transmission for $150 with only 100,000 miles on it. Still driving it today. Trans replacements are actually much less troublesome than engines. Do huh!? The XT6 trans is exactly the same transmission - 4WD and all. The XT6 automatic is 4EAT and most of them were 4 wheel drive. They are actually nearly identical to the Legacy transmissions and are actually interchangeable with not much effort. Do huh!? It depends on the model and year. The XT6 came eqiupped with AWD manual transmissions, AWD automatic transmissions, AND FWD automatic transmissions. Also, most is NOT the same as all. An AWD automatic must be towed on a flat bed truck unless special measures are taken. You can tow most FWD automatic by the front wheels on a dolly all day without a problem. Subaru now recommends that ALL AWD Subarus be towed only on a flat bed truck, automatic or manual, just to stop the confusion. Quite a few posters have reported totaled AWD automatic transmissions when their Subes were towed by the front wheels. Further, a couple of posters have reported damage when their AWD manual transmissions were towed by the front wheels. At least with the MTs it's usually just the viscous diff that goes. Edited June 24, 2009 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xoomer Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Not to Start anything but I Own 10 of these XT6's all of them Auto Except for one. All of them AWD... ALL xt6's came AWD the 4's on the other hand did not they had a 2wd tranny... And all of them have been flat towed at one time or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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