turin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) My wife just bought a new subie in November. It is a basic 2009 Outback Sport. We have since taken it to the dealer 4 times (all under waranty) to have the same problem fixed: the car pulls to the right. Actually, the first time we took it in, when we got it back from them we noticed that it was pulling to the left, so we took it back a second time. Then, ever since, it has pulled to the right, and every time we got it back from the dealer, the problem was simply not fixed (i.e. it pulled to the right on the ride home from the dealer). The dealer claims that they did not experience a pulling to the right. They say, "Keep your hands on the steering wheel, and hold it straight." But, when I do that, the car turns slightly to the right. If I let go of the steering wheel, the same thing happens. In order to drive straight, I must (even apply slight force in order to) hold the steering wheel slightly tilted to the left. All the dealer ever does (so far as they have claimed) is an allignment. My wife took it to a different Subaru mechanic, and that mechanic told her that the car is DESIGNED TO PULL TO THE RIGHT! How can Subaru be so stupid to design a car to do this? Is it true? How can I get this documented? If this is true, then this is completely unacceptable to me, and I will demand a refund. Edited July 16, 2009 by turin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Most modern vehicles are designed to pull you AWAY from oncoming traffic (yes - to the right) in case of a driver falling asleep, losing consciousness, etc. The idea is that it is safer to go "out of control" with other cars going the same direction you are going - rather than to risk a head-on collision. It is not a Subaru specific design. The alignment *specs* will put it that way if you align it by the book. It *can*be aligned to perfectly straight but the dealer probably won't do it. You would have to find an independent shop willing to set the alignment to a non-standard adjustment. That is *WHY* Subaru (and many, many other manufacturers) have been setting alignment specs to pull to the right for a LONG time. This is nothing new and has been common practice since before I started driving. Sorry - they won't give you a refund. And even if they did - you aren't likely to find another brand or model that doesn't do the exact same thing to one degree or another. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Pulls to the right. That can mean so many things. How many feet forward on a properly flat road does it take to drift 3 feet to the right. There is a right drift aligned in cars, but it should not be noticable nor fatiguing. A good alignment shop (and there are less and less of them) can take into account the normal weightload of the passengers in the car (using weights) to adjust the alignment to your liking. Good alignment shops will use the mfg specs as a guide and tweak it to make the customer happy. I am going to assume that they checked tire pressures before they aligned the car or checked it. i have seen quite a few forget this detail. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Rick is right. If your car does NOT pull to the right, you need to have an alignment done to correct it! For the reasons stated above. However, it should not be jerking your steering wheel out of your hand, and you should not need to keep the wheel steered to the left in order to drive straight. I say you take the car to a shop that specializes in Alignments.... and not the subaru dealer who specialize in selling you cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) even a tire with a bad belt or a sub-par tire with belt issues can cause a pull. I would assume you have tried to rotate the tires as well, to see if the pull follows a tire? Okay, let me know if you have done the tire rotation. and yes cars are designed and aligned to slightly venture off to the right, for safety. Also, roads with more crown on it affect alignment subtleties. Interstates are crowned more than state roads. around here, I ask for my aligment to be adjusted for less crowned state roads. So, when i do hop on the freeway, the crown makes my cars pull more , that is to my liking, as my cars drive perfect on the state roads. Edited July 17, 2009 by bheinen74 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turin Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 OK, so most of y'all are confirming that the car pulls to the right by design. How can I get this documented? I just think that they should disclaim this BS before they sell the car. The dealer did a tire rotation one of the times, but it didn't help. I don't know about the tire pressure; I just took for granted that they checked this, because they damn-well should. Maybe I'll take it to them one last time with pressures that I know to be off, and then check after the job to see if they even bothered with the correct pressures. Also, one of you mentioned that this has been the case since you have been driving, but that tells me nothing, since I have no idea how long that is. I have been driving for 14 years, and owned two previous cars in that time: jeep and mustang. Neither one of them had this problem (at least not that I noticed). I never got an allignment in the jeep (1981, owned for 5 years). I had a few allignments done on the mustang (at firestone), and I was never dissatisfied (2000, still own after 9 years). I thought about taking the Subi to an independent allignment shop, if nothing else to get a second opinion. I will do that and try to remember to post the results here. However, the one that I trust is in my hometown, so I don't know when this will happen. Thanks to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 OK, so most of y'all are confirming that the car pulls to the right by design. How can I get this documented? I just think that they should disclaim this BS before they sell the car. Well - buyer beware I suppose. It's up to you to research your vehicular purchases and test drive any prospective purchases. If you didn't like the way it drove why did you buy it? Also, one of you mentioned that this has been the case since you have been driving, but that tells me nothing, since I have no idea how long that is. Since I was 16 - so 14 years this coming September (I'll be 30 - yikes! ). Anyway in that time I've owned more vehicles that I can count - I currently have 6 - 5 Subaru's and a 72 VW Squareback. The Subaru's range from '83 to '94. With the exception of the VW (manual steering that I've never had aligned), they all have a right drift. The worst have always been the Fords I've had. I notice it more on the newer Subaru's I have - probably because they have more sensitive power steering than my older models. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) I have been driving an 08 Impreza 2.5i for 2 years now... yes they do pull alittle to the right..and yes its normal. Every foreign car I have owned has done that ( and I have owned in upwards of 30 foreign cars and 20 American) I have 38K miles on my Impreza and have been religious about my maintenance. I have had excellent tire wear...in fact I still have 8/32 in tread depth on all 4 ( new is 11/32) .. The loaner car I had when mine was in for a dealer oopsy..was an AT and its pull was alittle more noticeable then my MT..but still normal. You should have felt this on the test drive..if you took it for a long enough one...and if you ordered the car I hope you test drove it before purchase. I drove 2 of them when they were first released...and I ordered mine because they were too new to the scene and my dealer didnt have what I wanted ( I bought one from the first batch shipped to the country) I still test drove mine before signing the papers on it. What I am saying ..and its not to sound mean...but its normal...if you didnt like it you should have noticed it on test drive and made a note of it. then tried another..if that was the same and you didnt like it..then you should have walked. I really hate when people buy these cars then complain about something right after purchase that they should have noted during a test drive. Edited July 18, 2009 by Bucky92 typo-galor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3eyedwagon Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 If it substantially bothers you, it is too much pull. The right hand pull is designed for the situation where a driver falls asleep, and provides no steering input. It shouldn't be incredibly noticeable, but instead, a slow drift to the right over a somewhat significant distance. If you feel that you need to continually provide left hand steering input in order to keep it in your lane; you probably have a problem. Either that, or Subaru has decided that people that doze off need to end up in the ditch quickly. I don't know their alignment specs, so I don't know. If it is something you just can't stand; you are probably either OCDing out, or the specs have the car pulling too much. I'd say this leaves you with a couple of options. A: Find a good independent outfit to set your alignment to true, instead of the factory specifications. Alignment isn't brain surgery. Especially with todays equipment. I still set mine with chalk lines, a plumb bob, and a measuring tape. So a good shop should be able to figure this one out. B: Continue to complain about the problem, document your situation, and try to ditch the car under the lemon law act. You still have a little time to do so, but, you better get with it. If you do decide to take this route; don't document that this car is designed to do this. You want to unload it under the fact that YOUR car is somehow defective, and proving it is designed to do so will not help your case. People can Monday morning quarterback this one all they want, but, they haven't driven YOUR car, and chances are if their car were bothering them as much as yours sounds like it is bothering you; they'd be piping up too. Things like mileage can amplify problems like this exponentially. Even a few thousand miles will wear the shine off those new parts, and all of the sudden a tiny problem becomes noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turin Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) 3eyedwagon: Thank you for the only useful reply. GeneralDisorder: As 3eyedwagon affirms, a tiny problem can get amplified, and allignment is certainly not immuned to wear. The fact is that the car developed this problem after a few thousand miles, and my complaint is not that it had this problem, but that the dealer will not fix it - and lies about it. To me, this indicates that the dealer was hiding this issue from me. (Maybe I should mention that I asked the dealership how expensive an allignment would be before we bought the car, because I was worried that a symmetrical all-wheel-drive allignment would be expensive. Now I'm starting to think that the dealership purposefully set the allignment out of spec when I bought it so that it would go straight, so that I wouldn't reconsider.) I loved the way it drove when we bought it. I did research the car before I bought it, and I never found anything about pulling to the right by design. Even now, I cannot find documentation that Subaru designs their cars to do this, even though I am actively trying to find documentation that admits this, so "do your research" is BS advice, and anyway it is worthless after the purchase has been made. In fact, we spent over a year researching and deciding on which car to buy, and how to buy it. Now, I want to resolve my problem, because I don't think it is possible to go back in time and unpurchase the car. This BS happens all the time with used cars, and I understand that "buyer beware" is especially true when applied to the purchase of a used car. However, we purchased a new car. I don't suggest that buying a new car gives me the excuse to be careless, but I do think that I shouldn't have to worry that my car is chronically pulling to the right - while it's under waranty. As if you have never bought something that was misrepresented. Imagine that you just spent three months' salary on a brand new car that you test drove on the highway at 70 mph, and you thought it drove great. Then, after a few thousand miles, it started governing your speed below 55 mph "because it's safer that way". But, when you take it to the dealer, they simply tell you that they are able to drive it at 70 mph, and give it back to you without solving the problem. Then, you take it back to them again, and again, and you get the same results - no fix. Edited July 19, 2009 by turin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 How do you fellahs figure that cars are meant to pull to one side? There is nothing in their construction or set-up that would cause that. The cars are designed and built symetricaly,(well with regards all we are discussing anyway), and I have never seen a set of alignment figures yet that says to set one side differently to the other. So what is it in their design that is responsible for this "safety faeture"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 correct, cars are built to drift right.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 my only comment would be not to condemn the car or the alignment based soley on the ride home from the dealer. i assume you have 'test driven' this car extensively, and find the car lacking. so be it. when ever i get my car back from an alignment i'm always skeptical of the 'pull'. but when i drive it on the interstate, it pulls to the right in the right lane and to the left in the left lane, due to the crown in the road. that's as good as it gets. good luck with the car. i hope you can find a good solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Bheinen, in what way are they designed to pull to one side? I have been a mechanic for thirty something years and have read lots of workshop and body repair manuals and have never read anything to suggest cars are designed or adjusted to pull to one side. What do you base your statement on? Me being a mechanic and reading a lot does not of course ensure that there isn't something I could have overlooked, so all my opinions are simply that, unprovable opinion. If you know cars are designed to pull to one side though, it must be because you have encountered some evidence it is so.. And should be easy to prove.. Care to share with me what or where you read? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 cars are NOT made to pull right thats just straight BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I would suggest that you take another of the same models from the dealer for a test drive and compare the handling of the two cars to see if yours is an anomaly. If it is significantly different, then ask to meet with a regional manager if the dealership isn't cooperative. It's rather unlikely that the dealership monkeyed around with your alignment or is responsible for any other subversive activity as their isn't any profit in that behavior. You too shouldn't have to be deflating tires to test their competence. Yes there are good and bad dealers and mechanics but I don't think they are plotting against you in their every waking moment. I actually got SOA to replace a car under different circumstances so keep at them if you aren't happy. It is a big purchase. Good luck. PS I've been driving for 42 years and I've never noticed the "pull'. Perhaps I am already asleep at the wheel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Cars tend to pull one direction or the other because of the grade of the road surface. Roads are not flat, they are higher in the center and lower on the sides so that water will drain away when it rains. (supposed to be at least) This causes cars/any vehicle with wheels to drift to the lower side of the grade. If you're right of center it will drift right. Left of center, drift left. A drifting problem which slowly develops over time may be an indication of more drag in the driveline on one side. Bearings, brakes, tire pressures maybe. Even normal tire wear can affect driveability. I kind of assume that you've checked the tire pressure in all 4 tires with a known accurate gauge and made sure it is at factory spec. If the roads in your area are rough (potholes) then drifting to one side or the other is something you'll have to learn to live with unless you plan to get it aligned once a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Unless I see a manufacturer document or a DOT doc or a set of alignment specs that are asymmetric, I am going to call BS on pulling right by design. The concept is so damn flawed that it sounds like the stupid kind of thing manufacturers or the DOT would do/mandate, but actual cases where it would help are just about nil. Not to mention the compromise in fuel mileage and tire wear. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4_Welder Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It's road crown. A good alignment shop (dealers are not good alignment shops) will correct for it at your request. I have done alignments with people in the car (350lb+ guy in a Cavalier), and I had many loyal customers who would find me when I changed shops. I'd have to say 60-70% of my work was repeat customers, and word of mouth. Just be aware that if the alignment is adjusted for the road crown, the car will pull left in the left lane a bit harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I would suggest you take the front two tires and switch sides, the car may then pull to the left. If it does then you have a tire problem and not an alignment problem. I agree with you, you should not notice any pull to the right, maybe a very slight drift after a long distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I would suggest you take the front two tires and switch sides, the car may then pull to the left. If it does then you have a tire problem and not an alignment problem. I agree with you, you should not notice any pull to the right, maybe a very slight drift after a long distance. Are these tires directional, and maybe one or more are on backwards? nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 One other thought. Does it pull to the right cruising at a steady speed, or do you mostly notice it on acceleration? I'm wondering if the original poster could be feeling a bit of torque steer. I notice that his other vehicles (Jeep and Mustang) are either RWD or possibly part time 4wd with RWD active in the 2wd mode, so he's probably not used to feeling any torque steer. I do not notice torque steer in my wife's '98 OBW (5mt) but I do notice mild torque steer in the in-laws '01 Legacy GT (AT.) And I'm constantly irritated by it in my Honda, especially if I've just switched from driving the RWD BMW. I suspect the torque steer is worse in the '01 GT because the automatic tends to put more power through the front wheels, compared to the 50/50 split of the manual Subarus. Anyway, it's just a possibility, and if you're noticing it while cruising at a steady speed, it's not torque steer. Nathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 One other thought. Does it pull to the right cruising at a steady speed, or do you mostly notice it on acceleration? I'm wondering if the original poster could be feeling a bit of torque steer. I notice that his other vehicles (Jeep and Mustang) are either RWD or possibly part time 4wd with RWD active in the 2wd mode, so he's probably not used to feeling any torque steer. I do not notice torque steer in my wife's '98 OBW (5mt) but I do notice mild torque steer in the in-laws '01 Legacy GT (AT.) And I'm constantly irritated by it in my Honda, especially if I've just switched from driving the RWD BMW. I suspect the torque steer is worse in the '01 GT because the automatic tends to put more power through the front wheels, compared to the 50/50 split of the manual Subarus. Anyway, it's just a possibility, and if you're noticing it while cruising at a steady speed, it's not torque steer. Nathan Subaru's are famous for having no torque steer- as long as everything is set up right and the road is dead-nuts flat. I get no torque steer on a flat road, and sometimes quite a bit on a road where there is a dip where the right-hand wheels go (similar to a road crown but more severe). As soon as one side is compressed more than the other, the subie gets torque steer just like lesser FWD vehicles. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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