Engine won't start after reinstallation

[98sub2500leg]

I rechecked all the connectors again, harness and connectors look good.

 

I reemphasize just before starting the engine all the dash lights come on, the airbag & abs eventually goes out, then I crank and the oil & check eng. lights then go out. Cranks, but no start.

[nipper]

Well do you have spark?

 

There isnt a hecl of a lot of things to go wrong to cause a no start condition.

 

Assuming it ran before the surgery.

 

 

nipper

[98sub2500leg]

Just checked the coilpack, there is good spark on all 4 secondary outputs of the pack.

Is there a way to test the ECM? Seems strange it isn't even trying to start given there is spark.

 

Possibly the new plugs got fouled with oil when the timing was off, I thought I read another similar post to that effect. What is the trick to removing those long deep plug boots? Is there something else that would work to remove the boot, or do I specifically need a boot puller. Even if you get them off, seems like there is barely enough room for a deep socket to fit down into the cylinder not to mention the ratchet head before it binds against the sidewall.

[nipper]

Slow down bunky .....

 

Ok we confirmed we have bang, next is boom. Can you hear the ruel injectors clicking, or test them to make sure they have voltage.

 

ECUs dont suddenly go poof because of bad timing. And again, are you totally sure the timing is correct?

 

 

nipper

[98sub2500leg]

Slow down bunky .....

 

Ok we confirmed we have bang, next is boom. Can you hear the ruel injectors clicking, or test them to make sure they have voltage.

 

ECUs dont suddenly go poof because of bad timing. And again, are you totally sure the timing is correct?

 

 

nipper

 

I will check the fuel,injectors. Although I can smell unburned gas from the tailpipe after hcranking.

 

Yes on the timing, unless something changed since I put the covers back, but doubt it. I removed the belt, counted teeth and marked the belt in those positions.

removed the tensioner, lowered the shaft & reinserted the pin then reinstalled it. Realigned the cam sprockets, checked, triple checked. Aligned the crank sprocket, keyway down, marked circle up at 12:00. reinstalled the belt and counted the teeth to proper positions. Removed tentioner pin, reinstalled covers, ect..

 

Not sure

[nipper]

You are going to hate me.

 

Check it again. Leave the covers off and everything else off untill you can get the car to start, then reassemble it.

 

 

nipper

[98sub2500leg]

You are going to hate me.

 

Check it again. Leave the covers off and everything else off untill you can get the car to start, then reassemble it.

 

 

nipper

 

I'm willing to try just about anything here. Do you want to me verify the positions of sprockets, belt to sprockets, and crank sprocket?

 

Other than that what am I checking?

[nipper]

I'm willing to try just about anything here. Do you want to me verify the positions of sprockets, belt to sprockets, and crank sprocket?

 

 

 

Yes. I think you may still be off.

 

 

nipper

[Log1call]

Have you checked all the small vacuum hoses for correct position and connection?

It would be worth removing the spark-plugs in case they are flooded. If you really can't get the plugs out you could dissconnect all injector connectors and crank it for a while and see if it clears and trys to start, then reconnect the injector wires and it might go.

 

With regards getting the crank bolt out... That bolt needs to be tight when the engine is put back together so what ever method you use should cater for that operation. Since you are going to have to hold the crank eventually, you might as well do that right from the start when rmoving the bolt. I'd recommend taking the starter out and putting a flat steel plate/bar(about two inches wide works), between the ring-gear teeth and the bellhousing. Then you can use a nice steady torque to remove the bolt without danger of damaging anything, and, reposition the plate to the other side of the hole to tighten the bolt again later.

[98sub2500leg]

Before removing the covers again. I don't have a stethascope, but used the long screwdriver method. I can't say I am hearing the injectors click or open & close. I am to trying to find a noid light, having trouble finding one, will probably have to build my own.

 

Just thinking, I wonder what the chance is that the valves are bent and there isn't enough compression to fire. Just a thought. Whats the trick to getting those plugs out?

[98sub2500leg]

I agree that the symptoms lead to timing again. I know I did it right this time.

I am still working towards taking the covers off again.

 

I removed the intake cover to get to the injector connector. I couldn't find a noid light, so I disconnected one injector and connected my Fluke 87 to the injector connector and cranked the starter. No pulse. I also tried it on peak hold with no voltage. It should have measured something. If I can remember right the peak hold measures to 250ms. Even when it was not on peak hold I should have seen the meter jumping during pulses. When I took off the intake cover I can smell all the gas coming out the hoses (strong). When the starter was engaged for a few seconds with the air cover off (maf connected), and after the 3 second start cycle was over the engine kick a bit like it tried to fire on one cylinder for an instant, but barely noticeable. This only seems to do this with the air housing off. I wonder if there could be too much fuel in the chambers from all the firing (unlikely but a hopeful thought). Before removing the covers I will remove the injectors and try to air out the system (good suggestion Logcall).

 

For logcall, the crank bolt was easily removed by Dave's method and later re installed per Gloyale in earlier post suggestions. I have the manual transmission. Thanks for the injector removal idea.

[nipper]

Compression test would tell alot of things right now.

 

 

nipper

[Fairtax4me]

If you can smell gas in the exhaust then you must be getting fuel into the cylinders some way or another.

I second the compression test.

 

What is the trick to removing those long deep plug boots? Is there something else that would work to remove the boot, or do I specifically need a boot puller.

Put a jack under one side of the engine and lift it until you get enough room. Might help to unbolt the motor mount on that side.

 

Automatic: pull the access cover on the bellhousing. Wedge a large screwdriver into the hole in the torque converter and hold it firmly. Then torque the crap out of the Crank bolt.

 

Manual: Put it in 4th or 5th gear, set the E-brake or have an assistant hold the brakes. Then torque the crap out of the Crank bolt.

YOu generally don't want to "Torque the crap" out of any bolt on an engine. Even on the crankshaft steel threads can still strip out. Or the bolt can stretch or crack and snap off at a later time. Use lock-tite, and only tighten to manufacturer torque specs with a torque wrench.

[98sub2500leg]

Pulled the covers, everything checks out with the timing, hand cranking though doesn't feel right. I would have done the compression test already, but need to know how to get the plugs out and the compression tester in? Hopefully I won't need to raise the engine up to clear plug from the sidewall. I can't see how you could screw the tester in at the angle it is at with the attached hose.

 

Also, if it was bent valves, would I necessarily need a new head or just new valves.

[98sub2500leg]

If you can smell gas in the exhaust then you must be getting fuel into the cylinders some way or another.

I second the compression test.

 

Put a jack under one side of the engine and lift it until you get enough room. Might help to unbolt the motor mount on that side.

 

YOu generally don't want to "Torque the crap" out of any bolt on an engine. Even on the crankshaft steel threads can still strip out. Or the bolt can stretch or crack and snap off at a later time. Use lock-tite, and only tighten to manufacturer torque specs with a torque wrench.

 

I figured the only way to remove those plugs was by removing the mount nuts and lifting it until the plugs clear the sidewall. I believe the problem is bent valves from incorrect timing. Compression will tell.

[nipper]

There are two ways valves can get bent, one is from hitting each other, the other is to have them hit the piston.

 

 

Lets try a cheap test. An engine is a big air pump. Air should get sucked in the intake, and blown out the exhaust. Either us a peice of paper or your hand over the intake and feel which way the air is flowing.

 

A compression test will tell us if the valve timing is off on one head, and a dry/wet test will tell us if the valves are not sealing.

 

 

nipper

[Fairtax4me]

You could also do a leakdown test.

[98sub2500leg]

Well, I was able to test the right(passenger) side. cylinder 1=0psi; cylinder 2 =60psi.

 

Working on the drivers (left) side, but basically resigned to damaged heads

 

Options: Replace with used engine, buy replacement head(s).

Get another car.

 

Anyone know of any good reliable sources for rebuilt heads.

[davebugs]

 

Anyone know of any good reliable sources for rebuilt heads.

 

I think there used to be some folks advertising here with rebuilt heads - or perhaps it was just cams.

 

But I can't speak to price or quality.

 

Please update your city - so that I can tell where you are at.

[98sub2500leg]

I think there used to be some folks advertising here with rebuilt heads - or perhaps it was just cams.

 

But I can't speak to price or quality.

 

Please update your city - so that I can tell where you are at.

 

Mount Vernon Wa 98274

 

There are are several on the internet, hard comment on quality or reputation.

Most of them work by sending in your core & they either rebuild it or swap your core with a rebuild.

 

Also, have you had any experience with replacement used Japanese engines?

They claim they were compression tested before being removed, although not sure why they wouldn't tag them with the compression results. They claim the numbers are in the 180's.

Although they come with their original HG's, they claim they don't get any engines back from HG failures (hard to believe).

 

Also, apparently they claim the engines have 30-40k miles on them, there is no guarantee. The old rumor has it that the Japanese have some law that requires them to trade in their car when it hits 30-40k miles. Apparently, that's not as given. They can pay some fine or fee to keep the car so in reality you can get a car with over 100k miles or any mileage, you really don't know. They do claim they have the compression documentation from Japan before the engine was removed. Hard call.

[Fairtax4me]

Why would you pay to get an engine from Japan when its no better than an engine here? Get a set of heads from a junkyard (preferably one that has an in tact and properly aligned timing belt). Or take your heads to a reputable auto machine shop in your area. Last time I had a head rebuilt it was about $100 for the whole shabang. Dipped, milled, and ground, and they even replaced the stem seals. And that was for a 4 cylinder head.

[nipper]

Yes bent valves. And i agree that have a shop locally rebuild your heads. Lets keep those local machine shops in business.

 

 

nipper

[davebugs]

I agree - keep what you can local.

 

I have an excellent shop that does nothing but heads for all types of vehicles. Cars, trucks, tractors, airplaines and that's where mine go.

 

To have them checked for cracks and other issues, surfaced, and cleaned it's usually about 125 or so for the pair and they do them in a day(overnight actually). I ask them about valve stem seals - and they simply say they don't go bad on Subaru's. But they'll install them if I'd like.

 

The first several sets of heads with close to 200k on them I was a bit concerned. Turns out Suby valve stem seals aren't even that easy to get compared to other cars. Several of those cars now are approaching another 100k and still are fine. So they must hold up well.

 

 

I don't have them fix bent valves because I have enough sets of heads around here.

[98sub2500leg]

Hey thanks guys for the info. Took a while to get re motivated since this will be the third time around. I called and found a better machine shop that does valves,was quoted about $82. Could be a bit more.

The guy said if the valves are lashed one could be stuck open and I would be getting the symptoms I am getting.

 

Finally got to the left side (drivers side). Cylinder 2 reads solid 180 and holds pressure, while cylinder 4 also ready 180,but the pressure drops off after the crank. I'm not sure if the gauge just isn't sealing well or if there is a slightly open valve relieving the pressure?

I rechecked the right side. cylinder 1 has no reading and cylinder 3 reads only 150.

The question is should I pull both heads and take them in or just the right side.

I already took the left side and had it machined and pressure checked before, and after obtaining the right side, also had it machined and pressure tested. If both cylinders are hitting the same #, can a valve not be seating correctly to loose its pressure or is the gauge just not getting a good seal. Those are deep cavities.

I suppose while I have it all out I better get both sides tested again.

 

By the way anyone reading this, I was able to use a 5/8" plug socket, then work in a 3" short extension then the ratchet on all sides without propping up the engine (keep in mind I have small hands).

[nipper]

Do both heads, otherwise you may never get a smooth running engine again.

 

 

nipper