Causes of ABS and VDC failure light coming on at highway speed

[mountainwalker]

Hi all, been a while since my last post, lots going on family- and work-wise. I just dropped off our 2003 Subaru Outback VDC 3.0L H6 at the dealer before my Gold Plus warranty policy expires. Our subie has been running great (thanks again for all the great advice in purchasing it last year). There are only 2 issues we brought the car in for while still under warranty, one we're more concerned about, the second minor.

 

1) The ABS and VDC lights are still coming on sometimes, not always, usually at highway speeds between 50 and 70 mph. I notice they also tend to come on if we're on bumpy highway or an open stretch with a lot of head or side wind. I've asked about this before, but couldn't pull up the thread in search or from my control panel (think these may not be available after USMB migrated to new servers/host). Anyway, had this problem before I brought the car in for its 90K servicing, the dealership said it was fixed, and it started recurring about 1-2 months later. It doesn't happen every day, the only pattern is that it tends to happen on bumpier highway or on open stretches of highway with high frontal or side winds. The VDC anti-slip and general good performance in bad weather and snow were key reasons we bought the car, and we want to make sure we're not losing out on ABS and VDC, especially at highway speed.

 

Any idea what could be causing this? Another dealer service desk I called suggested it could be a loose chip or chips, loose connection, wheel speed sensor not working properly and problems with rings on each wheel hub that the speed sensors read. I should mention the dealer tries to weasel out of their warranty commitments all the time with very tricky language, though I've been quite successful in enforcing them with careful documentation and calling other Subaru offices.

 

If you are curious about what the dealer tries to do - imagine bringing in a car with the ABS/VDC indicator lights on at the very moment you drive in - proving there's a problem - and seat heaters that clearly aren't working - and the dealer telling you that if they a) can't duplicate the problem (no need to because you can prove it on the spot) and can't find the source of the problem or c) somehow establish some "outside" cause (even though the car always dealer serviced and no one has messed with these systems other than the dealer), they'll have to charge you full diagnostic fees instead of your $50 deductible. It's quite a scam.

 

2) The seat heaters stopped operating properly last winter, which I've read here and in other forums is very common. Heard the element usually goes on those after a certain number of years. It used to be on High they heated up very fast, bottom and back (about 30 seconds to a minute) and stayed very warm, and on Low they heated up quickly bottom and back but stayed medium warm. Now on Low you can barely feel heat and only in back or bottom and only in one seat; and on High you can feel little heat, and only in one part of the seat. BTW, another Subaru dealer suggested that you can make them use a heat sensing gun to prove that the seat heaters are not operating within spec.

[nipper]

The vdc and abs use the same wheel speed sensors. First I would confirm the ALT output is good. After that it is checking all the wheel sensors connections for a bad connector.

 

Seat heaters, usually drivers side fails first, then the passenger side. If they are both out then something else is going on. The old styles used series/parallel for low/high heat. The newer ones i am not sure, but i thik its electronic. First is to check the heaters themselves for continiuty (easy) then check the switches/electronics if they pass that test.

 

 

nipper

[mountainwalker]

Thanks Nipper, very helpful, much appreciated. Just put in email for dealer service guy.

[nipper]

Thanks Nipper, very helpful, much appreciated. Just put in email for dealer service guy.

 

 

Not to worry you, but that is all auto101. i dont have great faith in the delaership if they couldnt figure that out themselves.

 

 

nipper

[mountainwalker]

OK so dealer service rep called 15 minutes ago and asked if we'd done any kind of wheel alignment lately or had had some small accident (car has never been in accident, not even minor, and wheel alignment was done BEFORE 90K servicing). Then said that the reason that we've been getting the ABS/VDC failure lights is that the steering sensor was knocked off by 12 degrees, and that this could have only happened if someone had knocked it out of place when doing service, or had been jarred hard. No other system in the car or record shows any evidence of any accident, so that's out of the question. Then said he had to call Subaru national to see if that would be covered, which is code for "let's get Subaru to play ball with us and make sure this isn't covered." The way they do this by asking for your VIN # when you call for any information or lodge any complaints, and then the dealer twists national's arm to make sure they tow the dealer's line. Seen this twice already. I've gotten around it by making calls to confirm information or policy and get the rep on record without giving our VIN #. They give you a lot more information that way, and that's how I got our policy enforced.

 

Said that the reason they couldn't find this cause when we did 90K servicing in winter was that the sensor was throwing only temporary error codes, which are cleared from memory in a short time, and thus memory didn't show the errors. But when I drove in this morning, since the temporary error code was fresh, they picked it up.

 

IF this is the cause, they should have picked up on it during the 90K servicing when we identified the problem if they were checking thoroughly.

 

Any thoughts?

[OB99W]

[...] I've asked about this before, but couldn't pull up the thread in search or from my control panel (think these may not be available after USMB migrated to new servers/host). [...]

Not that it's critical to the current discussion, but your old threads are still available. Probably the easiest way to find them is to click on your user name at the top of any of your posts, which will bring up your profile. Then scroll down in the profile, and click on ''Find all threads started by mountainwalker''.

[mountainwalker]

OB99W, thanks for pointing out. I'm sleep deprived out of my head today and if I'd spent a minute playing with the interface would have found them. I vaguely remember a time after USMB moved to a new server or host that some threads were unavailable, so thought the old ones might not be available anymore.

[nipper]

Devils advocate here, but a big pothole can do what they are describing. Dont be so negative towards subaru, as they take each case on its own merits, and its up to the dealer to "sell" the issue to them.

 

However in this case I wouldnt blame subaru for not playing ball.

 

How much are they quoting for repair? I also cant seem to logically see how a bad wheel alighnment can cause this, but i can see how a pothole can damage a tone wheel or a wheel speed sensor.

 

 

nipper

[mountainwalker]

You are probably right that a big pothole could do it, but don't be naive about the dealership's tactics - I'm going off prior history with them - our own as well as others - the Subaru dealership service center tried to drop hundreds of dollars of repairs that were Subaru's responsiblity on us, and had we not been resourceful in researching with other reps and proving that the repairs were their responsiblity, we would have been ripped off.

 

According to other posts, this is common, though to be fair it's probably par for the course with most auto brands' dealerships. The dealerships simply earn more money on uncovered retail than on covered work.

 

Also keep in mind that it could be that the dealership just made up the steering sensor alignment to hide a covered repair, because it's not clear if the steering sensor misalignment would be covered. They do this all the time.

 

I'm sorry, but I've seen them do this "live" to other customers with the same policy, and I've heard of other Subaru customers who have gotten the same treatment. Though again, I'm certain it's not just Subaru dealers who do this.

 

Almost forgot to add - they use VIN# tracking so that the dealership and national customer service can collude to get on the same page, namely the dealer's page, when the customer calls to complain about the dealer and enforce the policy. Experienced this twice already, which is why I started calling and asking questions without giving a VIN #. And I was able to get info this way that proved the dealer was responsible.

Edited August 7, 2009 by mountainwalker

[Fairtax4me]

Said that the reason they couldn't find this cause when we did 90K servicing in winter was that the sensor was throwing only temporary error codes, which are cleared from memory in a short time, and thus memory didn't show the errors. But when I drove in this morning, since the temporary error code was fresh, they picked it up.

 

That sounds like horse poo to me. If the sensor is out of range or not aligned correctly they should be able to see that by scanning the system. No error code should need to be present. What has happened is the sensor has gone bad, and they're trying to find some excuse not to cover it. (I see this quite often, being an employee of a large local dealership chain.)

 

An intermittent problem like this is the hardest type to diagnose. It only happens sometimes, and unless somebody shells out some $$$ for diagnostic time, no technician is going to spend hours and hours trying to track an issue like this down. Unless its getting the technician paid, he/she is going to pull the "Could not Duplicate" card, and send you on your merry way.

Most dealerships use service teams these days. There are separate teams of multiple technicians that concentrate only on certain areas of the vehicle. And there are rewards for good performing teams at the end of the month. It comes down to how much work they do, not necessarily how well they do it. There is a customer satisfaction side to it, but a lot of times dealers can find ways to get around or contest bad index scores. If one technician out of the team isn't accomplishing the same amount of work as the rest the teams score for the month goes down and then you have several unhappy techs instead of just one. The service adviser also plays into this, because they get bonuses based on how well the team does. There is a lot working against the customer when a problem like this comes around, but it mostly comes down how greedy the dealer is. And the larger the dealership is, the worse it gets.

 

Now that they have acknowledged a problem in the steering angle sensor, they should be able to fix it. Whether it will be covered under warranty I couldn't say since I'm not familiar with Subaru warranty coverage. If they try to jack you around, get in touch with the Subaru service Rep. for your district/region. Explain the situation in detail, in a friendly manner, and they should be willing and able to twist some arms at the dealership and get this resolved for you.

[mountainwalker]

Fairtax4me +1

Thanks for that explanation. Unfortunately they keep pulling tactics like this.

 

My concern about calling the national 800 customer service line is that I've caught them colluding with the dealer twice already. I was only able to get the info I needed by going to other Subaru reps outside the tracked dialog with the dealer. The national customer service reps actually seem to be afraid of the dealers, probably because the dealers complain to their supervisors, and some dealers wield a lot of power.

 

Do you think the regional Subaru rep will be any better than the national Subaru 800 customer service number?

 

How can I prove that it wasn't the steering alignment sensor?

 

I'm also forcing them to address the seat heaters. Last time I brought the car in for 90K servicing I got a BS story about how if they look for the problem in the seat heaters and can't find it, they'll have to charge me for the diagnostic. Do you know how much BS that is when the seat heaters are covered and just don't work?

[nipper]

If its a bad steering angle sensor they should just fix it. Is your steering wheel off center?

 

 

And i dont agree with your conclusion about the dealers, but hey, thats me. I have seen subaru come to bat for things that are out of warrenty before, but to me, this is just one of those things that break. Call a subaru area rep and sweet talk them. i dont know what the paramiters are for the fault codes and tolerances are for the steering angle sensor, so I cant say if this will fix it or not.

 

If they are saying the car thinks its always going to the left when the wheel sensors are saying its going straight, i can see how the puter would give up trying to figure it out and throw a code. The real question is, is something bent in the front end?

If your wheel is straight, car goes straight, then its just a bad sensor.

nipper

[mountainwalker]

 

Now that they have acknowledged a problem in the steering angle sensor, they should be able to fix it. Whether it will be covered under warranty I couldn't say since I'm not familiar with Subaru warranty coverage. If they try to jack you around, get in touch with the Subaru service Rep. for your district/region. Explain the situation in detail, in a friendly manner, and they should be willing and able to twist some arms at the dealership and get this resolved for you.

 

The dealer service rep said they could fix it/fixed it, but that he needs to call the Subaru 800 customer support line to "check" if it's covered [out of deep concern for us of course]. But the whole way he stated the cause as being from an "outside" source is designed to screw us out of our coverage.

[Fairtax4me]

But the whole way he stated the cause as being from an "outside" source is designed to screw us out of our coverage.

 

I'd tell them to prove it. Has the car ever been to any other dealer for repairs?

 

Actually, it might be a good idea to visit another dealer at this point.