Electrical issue (strange!)

[BrightLights]

I have run into a problem wiring a set of driving lights (Cibie) to my 2009 Subaru Outback.

 

I have done this three times before with different cars (two of them Subarus), always without problem. I use a Bosch 30 amp relay and a fused 12 ga. wire (+/-15" in length) directly from the battery "+" terminal to the relay. I wired the lights up and the car would not start. The engine turned over fine, but the engine did not even begin to catch. I removed the wire between the battery and the relay (from the battery end) and the car started fine.

 

I next tried running the wire from the alternator to the relay. Same result.

 

I then started the car with the wire between the battery and the relay disconnected at the battery end (with no problem), then touched the wire to the "+" terminal of the battery. The lights lighted and the car ran fine. No drag on the engine, no rough running or anything.

 

As an experiment, I took the wire, which already had an insulated terminal at the relay end, wrapped the relay end terminal in electrical tape to assure that there could be no short circuit, then connected the wire to the battery "+" terminal and left the other end unconnected to anything. The car would not start. It turned over fine but, again, would not even begin to catch.

 

I had exactly the same result with just the wire connected to the "+" terminal of the alternator (and not connected to anything at the other end).

 

Can this be some security feature where the car thinks someone is trying to hotwire the car or bypass the security system? There cannot possibly be current flowing through the wire when it is not connected to anything at the other end, so how can the car sense it's there?

 

I repeated the experiment with the same result: the car will turn over but definitely will not start if there is a wire connected to the battery "+" terminal even if that wire is not connected to anything at its other end.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[89Ru]

Some clarifiying questions.

 

What you are doing with the return (-) lead? i.e where you make the connection to battery (-), back through the body?

 

When you connect a wire to the source (battery or alternator) am I correct to say you have just a single wire (flying lead), or in other words, an antenna? How long is this single wire?

 

By chance this single wire (antenna) is radiating some interference that is being picked up by your car's electronics, try twisting the wires together, this assumes there is a second wire (ground, back to battery) that you can in fact twist with the 12V (+) wire. If you are going through the body, this won't work.

 

If I read correctly, it sounds like the lights come on as soon as you make contact with the battery, i.e. the relay is closed all the time. Is this true?

[Cougar]

This is pretty strange alright. Did you connect the power lead to pin 30 of the relay? Also, how did you run the coil leads of the relay, pins 85 and 86?

[OB99W]

This is pretty strange alright. [...]

Completely off topic (or is it? ), but 2009 is the 50th anniversary of ''Twilight Zone''.

(Rod Serling was a denizen of central NY.)

[Cougar]

You could be on to something there OB99W.

[4x4_Welder]

Headlights ground through the body, wipers ground through the body, rear defroster grounds through the body, cig lighter...............I could just keep going for a while. First, a constant pure DC output will not send out a signal. Second, if there was some mystery magnetic signal leaching out to the main harness, why isn't the alternator lead that runs in the main harness shielded? Why isn't starter lead twisted with the ground lead, I'm sure that puts off a heck of a field.

What it sounds like is that the ballasts are shorted out and putting a high-frequency signal into the power system and that will create a problem with the computer, but it wouldn't do that with nothing attached to the end of the wire-

Some clarifiying questions.

 

What you are doing with the return (-) lead? i.e where you make the connection to battery (-), back through the body?

 

When you connect a wire to the source (battery or alternator) am I correct to say you have just a single wire (flying lead), or in other words, an antenna? How long is this single wire?

 

By chance this single wire (antenna) is radiating some interference that is being picked up by your car's electronics, try twisting the wires together, this assumes there is a second wire (ground, back to battery) that you can in fact twist with the 12V (+) wire. If you are going through the body, this won't work.

 

If I read correctly, it sounds like the lights come on as soon as you make contact with the battery, i.e. the relay is closed all the time. Is this true?

[BrightLights]

Some clarifiying questions.

 

What you are doing with the return (-) lead? i.e where you make the connection to battery (-), back through the body?

 

When you connect a wire to the source (battery or alternator) am I correct to say you have just a single wire (flying lead), or in other words, an antenna? How long is this single wire?

 

By chance this single wire (antenna) is radiating some interference that is being picked up by your car's electronics, try twisting the wires together, this assumes there is a second wire (ground, back to battery) that you can in fact twist with the 12V (+) wire. If you are going through the body, this won't work.

 

If I read correctly, it sounds like the lights come on as soon as you make contact with the battery, i.e. the relay is closed all the time. Is this true?

 

I'll try to reply to all questions in this post.

 

The failure to start (engine turns over fine, but does not even begin to "catch") happens when I attach to the battery or the alternator a 12 ga. wire that is unconnected to anything at the other end. Thus, the wiring of the relay/lighting circuit doesn't enter into the mystery.

 

But, for your information, here is how the driving light circuit is wired (works like a champ if I connect the relay to the battery *after* the car is already running):

 

#30 to battery

#87 to the driving lights, which ground through the bumper

#86 to tap from high-beam wire

#85 to toggle switch in passenger compartment and to ground through body

 

The 12 ga. wire from the battery is +/- 15" long.

 

Again, the relay doesn't enter into the problem since there is a failure to start when the wire is connected to the battery at one end and is not connected to the relay, or anything else, at the other. To answer the question, though, the relay is off unless the high beams are on and the toggle switch is up, in which case the relay is on.

 

Let me ask this question: has anybody added an accessory to a 2009 Subaru (with an anti-theft system) that required taking power directly from the battery?

 

Again, I am grateful for any help.

[Cougar]

Well after looking at your post about the relay connections it appears they are the way they should be. It seems that the idea of RF intererence that 89Ru made mention of may be correct. I think it is highly unlikely but then it is the only thing left that I can think of that would cause the trouble. Do you live near a broadcast station? It seems to me that if RFI really is causing the trouble you would have to be near some high power RF source. To see if this is the problem try connecting the relay power wire to the battery and not connected to the relay like you did before and verify again that the car will not start. If the same results occur then try closing the hood and see if the car starts then. I assume you didn't close the hood the last time and if RF is getting into the car systems then closing the hood should help and act as a shield to the RFI. If the car starts then you will really have a strange one for the books.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Cougar

[forester2002s]

And if RF might be the problem, try:

 

- removing the new relay from the car altogether; does the offending 15" wire still cause no-start?

 

- looping the offending wire back, and touching it to the +ve terminal of the battery; does the car start?

 

- try pointing the offending wire in a different direction; does the car start?

 

- try coiling the offending wire into a tight coil; does the car start?

[nipper]

is this a mechanical or electronic relay. Have you tried a differn relay yet?

[BrightLights]

I doubt very much that the issue is RF as I live in a rural area far from any broadcast or communication towers. I did, however, try closing the hood per Cougar's suggestion, but with the same result. I have not tried a different relay, but I do not see how that could help. The car won't start even when the wire from the battery "+" terminal is not connected to the relay (or to anything else), and the car fails to start even when the relay is not energized (because the headlights are not on).

 

I'll try forester2002s's suggestions, but it's raining now and that will have to wait.

 

Does anyone have a 2009 Outback with anti-theft who would like to run an experiment to determine whether they experience the same phenomenon? (the car always starts right up when the offending wire is removed).

 

Has anyone with a 2009 Outback with anti-theft successfully added an accessory taking power directly from the battery?

 

Thanks again for your suggestions.

[Cougar]

Can you show us a close up picture of how you are connecting to the positive post. Something just isn't right here. There is no way I can see the alarm system being able to detect that wire being connected.

[nipper]

Can you show us a close up picture of how you are connecting to the positive post. Something just isn't right here. There is no way I can see the alarm system being able to detect that wire being connected.

 

 

I cant imagine anything do what is described here.

 

 

nipper

[BrightLights]

Can you show us a close up picture of how you are connecting to the positive post. Something just isn't right here. There is no way I can see the alarm system being able to detect that wire being connected.

 

I tried every which way:

 

Ring terminal under the nut that threads onto the bolt that pinches the clamp around the positive terminal;

 

Ring terminal under the square head of the same bolt (on the other side of the clamp);

 

Larger ring terminal under the nut/washer that threads onto the vertically oriented bolt just downtream from the positive terminal (still under the red plastic guard);

 

Ring terminal on the positive side of the alternator.

 

Here's another data point: when I put *just* a ring terminal (no wire) under the nut on the battery clamp bolt, the car starts fine.

 

You're absolutely correct: something is just not right here. I never encountered anything similar on any of the other three cars I put driving lights on. But I have tried many, many times and the result is always the same.

[Cougar]

This is very, very strange. Do any alarm lights on the dash turn on when the wire is connected? Do you see any difference in anything except it doesn't start? Anything to indicate the alarm has been tripped?

 

Try wrapping the wire around the main starter wire and see if that makes a difference.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Cougar

[BrightLights]

This is very, very strange. Do any alarm lights on the dash turn on when the wire is connected? Do you see any difference in anything except it doesn't start? Anything to indicate the alarm has been tripped?

 

Try wrapping the wire around the main starter wire and see if that makes a difference.

 

No alarm lights on the dash turn on, but on a couple of occasions the "chirp" that you hear when you use the remote to lock or unlock the car (or a similar sound) chirped continuously for a few seconds when I turned the ignition switch off after a failed effort to strart the car, something it has never done under any other circumstances. No, everything else seems normal.

 

What would (or might) wrapping the wire around the main starter wire do?

 

Thanks again for your suggestions.

[Cougar]

If the wire is picking up some sort of noise wraping it around the main wire should reduce it.

 

Wait a minute. After writing that and looking at it another thought came to mind. Instead of the wire picking up noise it may possibly be putting noise out generated by the starter motor and that is being picked up by the security system. That is pretty wild but I'm getting desperate here trying to imagine what the problem is. You have definitely got a problem for the books here. If this is the case then wraping the wire around the main cable should help.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Cougar

[Gloyale]

Run you're power lead out of the Fuse box.

 

The main power lead to the fuse/relay box should be bolted on to the bottom. Put a ring terminal on it and run you're wiring from there.

[BrightLights]

Run you're power lead out of the Fuse box.

 

The main power lead to the fuse/relay box should be bolted on to the bottom. Put a ring terminal on it and run you're wiring from there.

 

Hi Gloyale, and thanks. Two questions:

 

1. Could you please be more specific about how to identify and access this main power lead?

 

2. Why would this be different electrically from attaching the ring terminal to the "+" terminal of the battery or the alternator?

 

Thanks again for your help.

[Fairtax4me]

1. Could you please be more specific about how to identify and access this main power lead?

 

2. Why would this be different electrically from attaching the ring terminal to the "+" terminal of the battery or the alternator?

 

1. There is a smaller cable that runs from the positive on the battery to teh under hood fuse panel. This is the same panel that all of the relays are housed in so it wont be hard to find.

 

2. It isn't any different. But all the rest of the lead wires for the electrical components under the hood come from that area.

 

This one is a stumper for sure. I'd suggest you go buy a length of shielded wire and see what happens with that. Keep in mind the shielding should be connected to ground to get the proper effect.

 

One more thought... this lead wire is fused isn't it?

[Cougar]

BrightLights, before you go trying other ideas would you just check to see if wraping the wire for the relay around the main starter cable clears the trouble. I suspect it will. If it doesn't then hopefully the other suggestions of moving it will work. I am just curious to see if this will work or not and it is a very quick and easy thing to do.

[OB99W]

Cougar has (gently ) nudged me to offer something more than ''Twilight Zone'' as a possible explanation for what's going on here. While I can't say with certainty, I believe that the unterminated and unshielded wire is somehow interfering with the key immobilizer.

 

Many recent cars use a transponder that interacts with the key via RF, and perhaps that communication is being disrupted. Manufacturers use twisted wires and shields to a much greater degree than they used to, in order to prevent (or at least minimize) interference. Those techniques have been suggested in this thread, and might resolve the problem. So might taking power from another point, as has also already been suggested.

 

For those interested in just how sophisticated automotive electronics has become, do a Google search on terms like ''immobilizer'', ''BIU'' (Body Integrated Unit), and ''BCM'' (Body Control Module).

 

By the way, that sophistication has made installation of aftermarket electronics a bit more difficult (and risky, in terms of possibly damaging things if a wrong connection is made) than it used to be.

[nipper]

Ya know...

 

 

This is a OBDII Can-bus system. Meaning it uses a multiplexed communications bus under the hood (I think or uses it to some degree). Maybe some place in here lies the answer, but, considering i used to wire test cells for large equipment (bomb racks sonar systems mine sweepers)), its possible something very very very wierd is happening along those lines. Professionally speaking, i dont think there is enough RF energy from any of these components to cause this.

 

Of course someone can just be screwing with you with the other key fob too

 

nipper

[BrightLights]

Many recent cars use a transponder that interacts with the key via RF, and perhaps that communication is being disrupted. Manufacturers use twisted wires and shields to a much greater degree than they used to, in order to prevent (or at least minimize) interference. Those techniques have been suggested in this thread, and might resolve the problem. So might taking power from another point, as has also already been suggested.

 

I am willing to try these things, as well as wrapping the wire from the battery to the relay around the main starter cable.

 

With regard to trying shielded wire, where does one go shopping for shielded wire of an appropriate guage (12-14 preferable)? I'm just familiar with house wiring, audio sound systems, and old-school car wiring, none of which use shielded wire (except for low voltage mic and line cables; speaker cables are unshielded).

 

With regard to taking power from another place, it seems that it would be best to take if from a source that is not energized until after the car has started. Otherwise (absent other measures), the car would detect it however it is doing so and prevent the car from starting. Any suggestions of an appropriate place to tap into?

 

And I'm curious. Has no one with a 2009 Outback tried, either successfully or unsuccessfully, to take power for an accessory directly from the battery? I don't even know at this point whether my car is an anomaly or whether all owners of the same model would experience this problem.

 

Thanks again for all your thoughts.

[89Ru]

In addition to above suggestions, to snuff RF that may be picked up by this wire, you could add 1 uF capacitors between the hot lead and body. Experiment with this, at the battery, across the relay terminals, and at the lights. In all cases, the capacitor should be across the hot (+12V) and return (body) or shield if you go that route. I kind of doubt this, since your car's wiring is just a big antenna anyway, and just driving from place to place changes the fields that it sees from time to time...so the signature comparison would be like chasing a moving target...

 

Here's a thought, maybe the anti-theft has a time domain reflectometer (puts out a narrow pulse and then listens for the reflection, like an echo detector). Kind of like if you tie a string tight between two trees and then strum it, you can see the echo 'wave' bouncing back and forth between the tie points. Any changes in the stored signature echo and bingo, your thief is caught. Yes, the existing wiring puts out a chorus of echoes like frogs in a pond, but any new frog, you get it....

 

If this is the case, a series power resistor (10-30 ohms) placed at the take-off point of the new hot wire (i.e. battery...) will dampen the reflection (in effect hiding the wire somewhat from the wire-sniffer), but it will lower the brightness of the lights, so not a great solution.

 

Any amount of tinkering may not defeat the anti-theft, if it is really sensitive. How about contacting SOA and seeing if your hunch is correct? Or any friendly anti-theft installer? If you are right, then the anti-theft should have a mode where it can store the new signature, and off you go.