GeneralDisorder Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 So as many of you know I'm working on a '99 Forester. Long story short, car was "using" some coolant according to owner, blows out radiator on 107* day a few weeks back. Car is towed to dealer - dealer says: 1. Radiator is bad (duh) 2. Headgaskets are bad - leaking oil and both sides need replaced. Also cause of radiator failure and coolant usage. 3. Bad front axle. 4. Bad rear wheel bearing. Now I haven't investigated #4 yet, but there is NO evidence to sugest either of the front axles are bad (boots are good, no noises, drive's normal). As for #1 and #2..... well the head gaskets aren't leaking coolant, and the amount of oil they are leaking is so small I wouldn't even call it a leak - more of an oil "sweat". Probably an eye-dropper's worth every 3k - maybe less. The coolant leak came from here (for reference, that's the thermostat housing/lower radiator hose) at the bottom of the pic: Just to show how long it has been off the nipple (notice the rust mark from it being in the middle of the hose for the last ~20k miles): Furthermore, the "headgasket oil leak" they claimed (passenger's side): Driver's side: So in light of this new information and the likely source of the overheating and radiator failure found.... who here would replace these gaskets? It seems like there's just no need to. The engine has had the Subaru coolant conditioner in it for the last 80k that I know of. I see several notes that it was added in the car's history - every time the coolant was changed in fact. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 This is why I am SO glad I came across this site and why I will also be driving Subarus for a VERY long time. The larger Toyota and Honda boards aren't nearly as technically oriented as this board. If you have a problem, the solution can be found here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 The larger Toyota and Honda boards aren't nearly as technically oriented as this board. Really? I haven't investigated any of those boards but I would have thought there would be a crowd of people just as rabid about them as we are about Subaru's.... Oh well - their loss. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 Update - investigation of "rear wheel bearing" yeilds nothing. Checking paperwork on car - one was replaced at 172k, the other at 224k. Both front's at 224k also..... Car now has 232k..... more dealer smoke? In large measure I can't find anything really "wrong" with this car other than a dealership that was looking to sell them a new one or make a killing off shop labor. I see what looks like a seperator plate leak - but small. Some oil "sweat" on a few spots. Needs new transmission cooler lines and hose clamps and new upper/lower radiator hoses..... that's about it as far as I can tell. '99 Forester - total cost thus far: $1620 GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 at that mileage i would not be replacing anything unless necessary. i'd be interested to have an idea of how much oil it's actually using of course, but sounds like you're not in a position to drive it through a full oil change interval to find out. timing belt components yes (pulleys, tensioner, water pump, if not done at some point), otherwise i'd leave everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugs Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 If you came to my suby shop, I would brake clean the crap out of the HG area, correctly install the H2O pump bypass hose, and replace the radiator and T-stat if needed. along with checking for proper fan operation first. And If it seemed as if maybe the T-belt and that is entaled with that needs replacing (this is done by me talking to you) I would recommend that. After that the next time you came in say for your oil change I would then look again at the heads, and if they looked the same, I would make a note of it, and tell you its not major but lets keep an eye out for it and be ready for it when it does if it does happen. but then again thats my shop and my way of doing things, and since you live in Portland and I am here in Spokane that is a long ways away to drive for a diag and oil changes Best of luck to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I think Mugs has the right approach by systematically finding and solving problems. He is the kind of mechanic that I would want to take my car to, and could put my faith in. I have seen dealer shops, not Subaru, and private shops pull the same nonsense on me, that you just received. The approach is to take minor questionable weak evidence and weave it into a story to tell the owner, that a bunch of work needs to be done. The result is a very pricey quote with some scare tactics thrown in about the need to get the work done ASAP, as the car is unsafe to operate, and going to break down. This sales pitch works really well on a lot of people, especially women, who are scared to death of having their car break down anywhere and any time. I think the most bothersome aspect of what you wrote, is the dealer trying to sell you wheel bearings and a front axel, when you brought the car in with an over heating problem. Unless you asked for these items to be checked out, it is my humble opinion that the dealer is "looking" to make work, and a fat profit, irregardless of what really needs to be repaired. If it were me, I would get my car out of that shop pronto, even if I had to have it towed out. I would also let them know why I was leaving without having any work done, and that I was never coming back again. A letter to the Better Business Bureau, and to the Subaru Zone Manager would follow. Let us know how you come out on this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDead Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Awesome find GD. Let's hope ya can make some good cash on this deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 since you live in Portland and I am here in Spokane that is a long ways away to drive for a diag and oil changes Best of luck to you. Thanks Mugs - I think I can handle it Sounds like you run a reputable business - I like that and I'm of the same opinion. The place I was just laid off from is the same - I was NEVER asked to fix anything that wasn't truely broken. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 Let us know how you come out on this! Sorry - you missed some of the background (which was in another thread). I bought the car with these "problems" and a quote from the dealer for $3500. Of course the plan was to make the repairs myself and sell it for a nice profit - all fixed and ready for someone to love. Much to my surprise and delight though - none of these problems reported by the dealer actually exist. So "how it came out" was that the couple that sold me the car got totally hosed - the quote was so high they just broke down and bought an '09 Outback on the spot. Towed the poor "doomed" Forester home and threw it on Craigslist - along comes a spider (me), offer's them $1500 for the car (thinking I would have to repair all these things - that was truely as high as I was willing to go) and now I'm seriously going to be in the cash when I flip the car as it ended up needing a radiator and a broken fog light replaced..... So needless to say I'm a happy boy right now... but sad for the couple I bought the thing from, and definitely mad that the DEALER would be this corrupt. Subaru was one of the best selling through the recession - perhaps it's because the dealer in question is also a Chevy dealer. Maybe that explains it. I don't really know.... What I do know is that I know a bad axle when I see/feel/hear one, and I sure as hell know a bad wheel bearing when I see/feel/hear one. I've been round the block a few times in a Subaru - having owned/sold/worked on/scrapped 5 or 6 generations of the things.... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Replace the radiator. Clean the head gasket area. Throw a new thermostat in there for good measure, and put the hose clamp back where its supposed to be. Possibilities of a bad axle. There could be some wear on the inside of the inner cv housings that can cause a vibration on acceleration. If left long enough then it can lead to some binding, but honestly that's just not worth fixing until it gets to the point where its noticeably affecting the driveablility of the car. We see this a lot in the Saabs at work. The only reason they get ever really get replaced, is because the owners are picky. With 230k miles on the car, you kind of expect there to be some shimmies and shakes here and there. I'd do some PM (T belt, water pump, pulleys, cam seals) and let it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 Replace the radiator. Clean the head gasket area. Throw a new thermostat in there for good measure, and put the hose clamp back where its supposed to be. Yeah - when I bought it I replaced the radiator on the spot (much to the surprise of the owner - took 20 minutes) and drove it home. Found the hose clamp later - obviously it doesn't leak enough to be a problem unless it's 107* outside and it's ignored till it's too low on coolant. I haven't replaced the thermostat but I see no reason to as it was done along with the timing belts, all idlers, and tensioner 20k ago by the dealer. Possibilities of a bad axle. There could be some wear on the inside of the inner cv housings that can cause a vibration on acceleration. If left long enough then it can lead to some binding, but honestly that's just not worth fixing until it gets to the point where its noticeably affecting the driveablility of the car. We see this a lot in the Saabs at work. The only reason they get ever really get replaced, is because the owners are picky. With 230k miles on the car, you kind of expect there to be some shimmies and shakes here and there. I'd do some PM (T belt, water pump, pulleys, cam seals) and let it be. Car drives perfect. Nothing that I could notice. I was expecting to find a torn boot or something. Nothing. Also if the dealer was going to call out an axle for a shimmy/shake or vibration on accel - they would neccesarily have to call out both as the axle boots are intact and thus there is no reliable way that I know of to ascertain which one is the culprit. That wasn't the case - on the quote they only said ONE of them needed replacement. It's all very fishy anyway when (as Rooster2 pointed out) you bring in a car for a burst radiator and they start telling you that half the drivetrain is about to fall out from under the car. The couple is very nice - a school teacher and a nurse. They know nothing about cars. The dealer saw them coming - that's all there is to it. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unibrook Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 just how much is someone willing to pay for this high mileage Forester out your way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 just how much is someone willing to pay for this high mileage Forester out your way? Blue book is $4250. I'll be starting it at $3500. The car is VERY nice and has a superb maintenance reccord. Being a phase II EJ25 it's also a great candidate for an EJ22 swap. There's a lot of potential regardless of the mileage. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 The dealers are hurting, and some are definitely fishing. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Also if the dealer was going to call out an axle for a shimmy/shake or vibration on accel - they would neccesarily have to call out both as the axle boots are intact and thus there is no reliable way that I know of to ascertain which one is the culprit. That wasn't the case - on the quote they only said ONE of them needed replacement. Our Saab tech tests them by putting the car on the lift and putting it in drive, and listening to the axles as they turn. We also have a Chassis ear kit the techs use to track down drivetrain/suspension noise. I've driven a few of those cars that had the vibration, I'd say it feels kind of like the drive shaft wobble that's typical of rwd cars with split drive shafts (2 piece) when the carrier bearing bushing goes bad. You can only really feel it under heavy acceleration most of the time. But as I said before, there's no point in bothering with it unless it starts to noticeably affect driveability. Binding/popping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Yeah, I've had a local shop do the same thing. Got the car into the red, parked it overnight, and had a jerky acceleration/no power problem afterwards. They told me blown hg's and I needed a rebuild or new engine, both would run $1000 to do. Being a green horn I believed them and I didn't know what blown hg's looked like, but took it home to fix it myself. But after pulling it apart, the hg's and heads were fine and after putting it back together, it still had the same problem. Turns out I killed a fuel injector. Keep your eyes and ears out for those "reputable" Shops and dealers. And as I like to say "Tech support? What tech support? I AM the tech support!" Twitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I bought my 98 OBW new, after 60k miles I took it to the dealer for the 60k mile service (not to name names-north end of the county south of me). They changed the coolant out as part of the service. Got the car back, I smelled coolant but couldn't find any leaks anywhere. About 2 weeks later it started to overheat on the freeway had it towed back to the dealer they called me to say they had good news & bad. Good news was I was low on coolant (go figure). Bad news was I needed new HG's ($2300 quote). The service MGR didn't give me any reason back then why I needed them, just that if a Subaru ever sees an overheat condition, they automatically replace the Hg's. The temp gauge only hit 3/4 full scale, then I pulled over & had it towed to the dealer. I wouldn't consider that a serious overheat to justify a $2300 job. They said if I continued to drive it, I would blow the engine. I had the coolant tested for hydrocarbons at a local reputable independent shop. They found a microscopic trace which wasn't conclusive enough to warrant new HG's. He said drive it and watch the coolant level. I did & drove it another 50k miles over the course of another 5 years, overheating was intermittent during that time then finally got worse this past spring to where I had to replace them(coolant boiled over). The problems didn't start until after I had got the car back from their 60k mile service job. Maybe a coincidence, but to me -unlikely. Bought a used car from them 3 years before that found out it had a front seal oil leak a month after I bought it, they shrugged it off. After removing the heads during the HG job I had them machined and had about 2 thousands of warpage. Pretty minimal for 5 years of driving with an intermittant overheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 It is common for the DOHC engines such as in your 98 to do that. The engine in the 99 Forester is the SOHC and they don't blow the HG's in the cooling system (so they do not overheat unless run low on coolant). They weep coolant and sometimes oil to the OUTSIDE of the engine and drip it on the ground. They are two completely different animals. Your 98 went ~100k and blew the HG's. This engine has 232k and only leaks a tiny amount of oil from the head gasket. BIG difference. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Abides Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 If i were you GD i would inform the previous owner of what kind of shenanigans the shop is up to. They might not get the price of there car back but they will be grateful of the info you have provided them. Also have you driven the car hard. I mean punch the hell out of it. Maybe that might show up some problems you are missing. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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