Any good 2.5's?

[eppoh]

I am considering buying a wagon for the wife. If there were any recent models with the 2.2 I would go with that, but since there are not...

 

Are there any years 2.5's that don't have problems with head gasket leaks?

 

I typically buy a car that is a few years old, and drive it about 200K before replacing it.

 

I don't want to mess with an engine that is problematic.

 

I heard Subaru say back in 2000 they had the head gasket problem fixed, but we all know how well that worked out.

[idosubaru]

There's no quantitative information on this. Thing is the newer the car, the more likely for repairs to get fixed without anyone ever knowing, so it usually takes awhile.

 

So if you're looking for a black and white, yes or no, kind of answer you will not get one. If someone suggests they know, that probably means you're listening to a whole lot of opinion, anecdotal experience, or both!

 

Here's what I recommend - get a 2000-2002 that has already had the headgaskets properly replaced. They're not hard to find usually, particularly in Subaru rich areas.

 

Or get a 2004+.

 

2000-2002 is part of the extended head gasket warranty campaign, so those are documented by Subaru so to speak.

 

2003's have definitely seen some failures and folks are saying some 2004's (i believe there's one thread on here about one). But like I said, cars only a few years old often just get fixed, they're still worth $10,000. I'd guess they resolved it.

 

I personally would shoot for a 2004+ vehicle as the incidents seem lower so far and the 2000+ headgasket issue is much more benign than the older ones and doesn't leave you stranded (that's most important to me).

Edited September 4, 2009 by grossgary

[eppoh]

Thanks for the info. Think I will wait for the diesel OB, from Europe.

 

I find it hard to believe Subaru has such an avid following, considering the rash of HG failures over the last 15 years on the 2.5.

 

I guess so many people in the US market just don't care, until it happens to them.

 

Subaru has a business model that reminds me of Peugeot. They are out of the US market. Their last diesel had similar head gasket problems.

 

Is it really rocket science to design a head that won't leak, or is it a matter of designed obsolescence?

[EvilDead]

We love our Subaru's for what they are. Head gaskets can fail on a lot of vehicles. We just fix the problem, and move on.

[GeneralDisorder]

I find it hard to believe Subaru has such an avid following, considering the rash of HG failures over the last 15 years on the 2.5.

 

I guess so many people in the US market just don't care, until it happens to them.

 

The term "head gasket job" has, in the last 20 years, become 100% interchangeable with "boondogle".

 

Thing is - it's a freakin GASKET people. So what if you have to change one every 150k to 200k? It's really not a big deal. It doesn't mean the engine is junk. It's not like we are replacing pistons or rod bearings or something. 30 years ago you would be replacing the whole engine by that mileage.

 

Are there engines that can make 300k without a single failure? Certainly - but some folks like you think that it's *easy* to engineer stuff like that. It frankly isn't. Mostly it's straight luck. You try your best with a design but sometimes you don't hit a winner - the automotive industry isn't NASA and trust me - when someone design's a car to never fail.... you nor I will be able to afford it.

 

Stop ragging on Subaru - it's your perceptions of what "should be" that are wrong. If you are looking for something in the auto industry that isn't going to fail - you just have to wait it out. It's easy to compare the EJ22's with the EJ25 *now* - but it wasn't so clear back when they were 3 to 5 years old. No one knew they would be the unkillable machines they turned out to be. At some point you have to stick your neck out and take your chances. Every newer vehicle is a roll of the dice - doesn't matter what brand it is. Hell - look at all the suckers that bought a Pontiac in the last few years - bet they didn't see GM folding that division did they?

 

Is it really rocket science to design a head that won't leak, or is it a matter of designed obsolescence?

 

Yeah it is - if you want to be 100% sure it will never leak you need a team of engineers to subject it to everything imaginable for 3 years before you sell a single one. So you and 6 other guys can cough up the $1.5 million for your engine that will never leak.... I'll just replace a few gaskets every 5 to 10 years and be on my way.

 

As for the 2.5 - I have a '99 Forester (SOHC phase II) in my driveway with 232k on the original gaskets. 100% dealership maintenance till I got it. It's only a single example, but they don't all blow if you look at them cross-eyed.

 

GD

Edited September 19, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[Olnick]

You create a nice sense of perspective, GD. Thanx!

[idosubaru]

As I've said before if you rule out every car company that has had a problem area on a vehicle - you won't have any companies to buy from.

 

As to GD's comments - to you or I it's 'just a gasket' - to some it's a $1,500 repair. a lot of people...whether it's $500 or $5,000 are spending about as much as they can on a car, like the friends/family I help buy cars, and can't afford a $1,500 repair bill in a year. they need to keep the head gasket stuff in mind.

[ezapar]

WE have several 96-99 Outbacks at the J/Y I work at. One has 322k on it, the others are at over 200k. These are cars that came to us because they were hit hard and totalled.

 

Indeed. If the head gasket goes, change it.

[GeneralDisorder]

As to GD's comments - to you or I it's 'just a gasket' - to some it's a $1,500 repair. a lot of people...whether it's $500 or $5,000 are spending about as much as they can on a car, like the friends/family I help buy cars, and can't afford a $1,500 repair bill in a year. they need to keep the head gasket stuff in mind.

 

Yeah but if you are buying something that's 3 to 5 years old then one would hope that you can afford to own something that's 3 to 5 years old.... know what I mean?

 

And as you pointed out - the smart buyer looks for the older model that has already had the updated gaskets installed. Once they have been done right - they stay done generally speaking.

 

There's a lot of things that can go wrong with cars of every make and model. Subaru's are generally better than the competition in that their failures are rarely going to threaten the viability of the car. Most any Subaru on the road, old or new, can make it to 300k with careful maintenance. Head gaskets are probably the *most* major repair you would ever have to make.

 

GD

Edited September 19, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[idosubaru]

but if you are buying something that's 3 to 5 years old then one would hope that you can afford to own something that's 3 to 5 years old.... know what I mean?

right on. there's no blanket statement that covers all situations. i steer friends/family to EJ22's of the late 90's to avoid the possible $1,500 repair. but that's not new enough for a lot of folks.

[logic23]

I dont know about the 2000-04 head gasket issue being benign. I have replaced three phase 2 2.5 engines in the past 2 weeks that all had lower end issues that I'm guessing were due to the headgasket leaking>>cylinder burning oil>>> rod knocking>>>rod goes through block. I am driving a 2001 legacy thats just burning anti-freeze and runs a little hot when the coolant level drops too low.

I don't know why subaru stopped making the 2.2. I hope that subaru doesn't go the way volkswagen did and start making poorly engineered vehicles that look flashy. Lets hope not.

[PeterD]

I dont know about the 2000-04 head gasket issue being benign. I have replaced three phase 2 2.5 engines in the past 2 weeks that all had lower end issues that I'm guessing were due to the headgasket leaking>>cylinder burning oil>>> rod knocking>>>rod goes through block. I am driving a 2001 legacy thats just burning anti-freeze and runs a little hot when the coolant level drops too low.

I don't know why subaru stopped making the 2.2. I hope that subaru doesn't go the way volkswagen did and start making poorly engineered vehicles that look flashy. Lets hope not.

 

Volkwagen is now making some of the best cars they have ever built. I have a love hate relationship with VW. I think there cars are great looking and well built. But they still cant fix problems that have plagued them for years. Subaru made some well built cars in the 80s and up to the mid 90s with the birth of the Legacy. When the Outback came out for the first time I felt Subaru had gone down hill. Poor ergonomics, cheap leather, cheap plastic, road noise like you won't beleive, and transmissions that cant make up there mind. Still reliable cars though. Fast forward to the 2000s with the new redesign and I feel they made some big improvements. My parents just traded in there 98 Outback with 260k miles on the clock. The transmission was shot and had EGR codes, Knock sensor codes, and the O2 sensor light came on. It had one set of head gaskets replaced by my father at 180k miles. They wanted to get a Toyota but finaly settled on a 2010 Outback! 2.5 with the CVT. Its a fantastic car. Somehow my Dad was convinced that Subaru makes one of the best cars on the road.

[StructEngineer]

The term "head gasket job" has, in the last 20 years, become 100% interchangeable with "boondogle".

 

Thing is - it's a freakin GASKET people. So what if you have to change one every 150k to 200k? It's really not a big deal. It doesn't mean the engine is junk. It's not like we are replacing pistons or rod bearings or something. 30 years ago you would be replacing the whole engine by that mileage.

 

 

From what I've read on here, if you blow the headgasket you're better off dropping in a new engine due to the labor costs of machining a possibly warped head/block. Is this bunk? Doesn't sound like a trivial gasket to me.

[idosubaru]

Doesn't sound like a trivial gasket to me.

there's no one-size-fits all.

 

if you've owned the car since new, it never overheated, and you can replace the $50 gaskets yourself (like many of us can and have), it's kind of simple.

 

and of course there's any number of scenarios where a swap is a good option.

 

people aren't robots, i know that's hard for some engineers to understand since I am one and had to go to school with some of the worst in the country!!!! but, people are not machines and there isn't one solution only to every single decision.

 

think differential equation, not 1 + 1 = 2!:lol:

[GeneralDisorder]

From what I've read on here, if you blow the headgasket you're better off dropping in a new engine due to the labor costs of machining a possibly warped head/block. Is this bunk? Doesn't sound like a trivial gasket to me.

 

Yes that is bunk. Cost to machine both heads is $70 to $80. The gaskets themselves are about $100 to $150 for all of them you would need (manifolds, valve covers, head gaskets, etc).

 

Block's simply don't warp. I've seen some severely overheated engines and the block's are never a problem.

 

And frankly, most of the time it's not necesary to mill the heads. 99 times out of 100 a small amount of warpage will make zero difference in the end result. There are extreme cases out there, but by and large just torqueing them down will pull them into alignment and seal them. I've reinstalled heads that weren't perfectly flat on many occasions and never had a problem. You can even sand the heads flat by hand with a flat surface, some glass, and the right grit sanding belt.

 

As much as people would like to think they are, these are not swiss watches. They aren't AK-47's either, but you have to have the proper perspective on an engine. A reciprocating, internal combustion engine has come a long, long way since they were designed 100+ years ago. I've pulled the heads on EA81's, sanded both surfaces with a 3M pad, and reinstalled them the same day. Those engines are still running strong 10's of thousands of miles later. Total cost to me - less than $50. EJ's are no different - newer - but no different if you are careful and know what you are doing.

 

Head Gasket = Trivial. Why do you think so many of us buy them with bad HG's and resell them? Because it's a walk in the park for ~$2000 profit. Mostly because people are scared by the hype and have zero understanding of what it really means.

 

GD

Edited September 20, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[bratman18]

To answer the original question, the newer turbo 2.5's are pretty solid motors. The ones in the Bajas and the Legacy GT's have a problem with the main bearing slowly going, which usually causes the turbo to fail first and then later on the bearing finally goes. As for the N/A 2.5's, yes they have hg issues. And I have seen MANY go at 50k and also see MANY go at 70k, so it's the fact that you never know when they are gonna start leaking that sucks!! A HG failure at 50k miles on a Subaru would rub me the wrong way, and it did!! I won't own another. I took the gamble and lost. Yes they aren't hard to change, if you have the tools and know-how, but if you don't, it's very expensive.

[Gloyale]

From what I've read on here, if you blow the headgasket you're better off dropping in a new engine due to the labor costs of machining a possibly warped head/block. Is this bunk? Doesn't sound like a trivial gasket to me.

 

Dropping in an actual "NEW" enigine will cost you 3 times as much EASILY as simply replacing a headgasket.

 

Dropping in a reasonably priced "used" engine will cost roughly the same, but then you have an unknown motor, that could still blow up tommorow. FYI, Junkyards require that EVERY external engine part and seal be replaced (including oil pump) in order for them to honor any warranty they might claim to give. So there the cost goes up over the price of just "dropping in" a motor.

 

 

The most cost efficient, and long term sound thing to do is to put new headgaskets on the motor (assuming it runs well, and hasn't been SEVERELY overheated). Replace all the seals, waterpump, and timing belt at the same time you will have a rock solid car for the next 5-10 years, at least engine wise.